**A** (0:04):
What's up? What's up?
**B** (0:05):
What's up?
**A** (0:09):
So in fact, I already prepared some questions, but you can still drop everything that you want to know. We got Sunny here, an absolute legend in the Cosmos space, in the crypto space, maybe. But yeah, before we start, big shout out to the organizers. I think we can give them a big applause here for Gateway. This is an amazing conference and I think even though we're in tough times right now, a lot of people lost a lot of money. You can still see there's interest. People want to learn about Cosmos. So yeah, it's just great to see all of you here and have good conversations and learn from each other. But yeah, Sunny, first of all, how do you like Prague? Is it, Is that your first time here?
**B** (0:56):
It's my first time here. I was supposed to come here three years ago for Devcon 4 and Jay and I, we were. This was like while we were in like trying to launch the Cosmos Hub and we're like, you know what, we're going to skip Devcon 4 and we're going to grind out that week and while everyone else is conferencing, we're going to like, by the time they're back, we're going to be ready to launch the Cosmos Hub. Didn't happen. It took like another four months. But, you know, I ended up missing Prague that DEFCON 4 and everyone told me that Prague is like the greatest city ever. And so I was really excited to come. Unfortunately, the last few days I've also been. I didn't get it. I haven't gotten a chance to really see much of Prague yet. But yeah, you know, I was supposed to be giving a talk. I think I've slept an average of like two or three hours for the last like week or five days. And so, you know, this is our replacement. A live cryptoceto episode for you guys.
**A** (1:59):
Yeah. And I think at this point we can also give a big round of applause for all the builders. Like, I really appreciate what Sunny is doing and Josh and all the builders in Cosmos, they're like non stop working on this. So I think we can give a big round of applause for them now. It's a good time. But yeah, you already said last week has been really challenging for crypto. One of the biggest, the by far biggest Cosmos chain actually went down. I think we talked about this on my channel a couple of times. You said this is a very aggressive tokenomic model that they chose. It's a very crazy experiment. For a long time it went well until it didn't, but yeah, it also affected some other chains in Cosmos. Not in terms of operations or performance, but in terms of liquidity, predominantly osmosis, because there was a bunch of liquidity of UST and Luna. So give us a quick TLDR of the past week, how it was for you, for the team. You said you only slept two hours on average and some of the immediate measures you guys took or evaluated to prevent loss for the osmosis community.
**B** (3:08):
Yeah, so yeah, it's been crazy week. You know, I guess along with everyone, I was glued to my phone, looking at Coingecko and crypto Twitter, just like seeing what was happening minute to minute, you know, the UST depeg was I had a friend who was the Anonymous creator of ESD empty set$, and he had built like an algo stable that had failed spectacularly. And he told me like nine months ago, he's like, the day that the UST market cap flips the lunar market cap, it's all going, it's going to enter death spiral mode. And so that happened on like Wednesday. And at that point I was like, all right, this is over, let's get into crisis mode. I feel like no one else was crisising then, but like, you know, just because of what my friend had told me, he understood the psychology of people during algo stable crashes. And so he's like, okay, this is what's going to happen. So thankfully the Osmosis foundation didn't have too much UST or whatever we had. We were able to disorder it pretty quickly, very early on. But so what happened from there? Our biggest issue was we had the LPs that were sitting in that UST Osmo and Luna OSMO pool pool. The Luna OSMO pool kind of crashed to zero faster than we could do anything about it. But there was, I think, still some hope for like, what can we do to at least protect some of the value in the UST OSMO pool? Because UST had crashed significantly, but not all the way to zero. And there was still quite a bit of OSMO that was paired with that. So how could we save the LPs from that Osmo? Save their Osmo at least. And so one of the biggest issues that actually happened, what ended up taking a lot of Thursday and Friday was like there was this economic issue where the supply of Luna was able to be like, you know, just minting infinitely basically. And like the pre crash supply of Luna that was staked was small and that would. The economic value of that was crashing very Quickly. And it was getting to this, you know, Zaki was sort of the first to be like, you know, hey, this guy, this is an issue. But it got to the point where I think it was like would have taken $15 million to take over two thirds attack the Luna, the Terra chain, while there was like $60 million of Osmo paired with the UST. And so if you did that, there was actually like, you know, it was an economically rational attack to do. And so that's kind of, you know, we sprung into Terra was a little bit of anarchy at this time. You know, no one could get in touch with anyone from TFL or anything. So we kind of, you know, myself, Jack Marco, a couple other, you know, Cosmos ecosystem folks, we like sort of jumped in, helped coordinate the validators to be like, hey guys, we gotta like emergency hard fork the chain and fix this problem. And so we were able to do that, we hard forked it. So basically none of the newly minted Luna could actually be staked. We basically turned off new staking. So that way it was stuck. The validator set was fixed on the current trusted set basically. So that was the one. And then there was another hard fork that happened which was basically to turn off the mint burn module because the Luna supply was going so crazy that they're like, okay, we gotta just turn it off. And then during that there was Jim from Figment, he said, hey, let's turn off the IBC channels with Osmosis. And so that actually was really helpful because that helped sort of prevent more UST to flow into Osmosis and cause further il. So even if the price of UST kept going down further, it was like, you know, sort of capped. The amount of USD that could be sold on the pools was capped to what was on Osmosis. Then the final. Then. So after those two things happened on Terra, basically we had to do help. I was part of three chain upgrades in three days. Two on Terra, one on Osmosis. I think that's the most I've ever done. So the third one was an osmosis upgrade where we had like a fast approval process from governance which kind of did two main things. One, we allowed this depooling thing where it allowed the LPs who were in that UST Osmo pool to at least remove themselves from the impermanence loss. And so only they still have to go through the unbonding of the UST and OSMO individually, but it's not in the pool. And this was important because what was going to Happen otherwise was was as the first people who were finished unbonding their LP shares, they would have turned around and taken their UST and dumped it on the people behind them who were still in the unbonding period. And so we needed an opportunity to say hey, everyone has an opportunity to start unbonding, remove your liquidity from the pool so it doesn't get into that cycle and sort of help a lot of people save at least the OSMO side of their positions. And then the other thing that we did was it was sort of really unfortunate in where you know, there was a proposal on Monday to start adding incentives to USDC and you know, and it would have gone live on Saturday. And you know, I wish like this, the timing was unfortunate where even if this happened like even a couple of weeks earlier, you know, we could have had more USDC liquidity on osmosis. But, but basically there was a proposal to just super fast track these incentive changes. So we basically moved over a lot of the incentives from the UST and Luna pools into Eth DAI and USDC pools. And I guess we'll talk about that in a little bit. But yeah, yeah.
**A** (9:29):
And you also already mentioned the fast governance proposal that went through really quick, which a lot of people. There's also a question from somebody whether this is going to become a new normal to apply upgrades or forks skipping governance. So I think it's also a philosophical question. Is there for emergency situations like we just had, should there be a faster instance that you could apply and integrate or make changes faster? And what do you think about that?
**B** (9:58):
Yeah, I definitely think there needs to be some changes done to the governance system. I was the one who wrote most of the governance system for the Cosmos SDK like three, four years ago and I don't think it's changed meaningfully in any way since then. It's like probably the least changed. It's not the sexiest module to work on. You know, you can go work on like cool staking and stuff and it's like everyone likes to talk about governance, no one likes to go make the updates to it. So I think what we got to go do right now is go really fix how, you know, adding a lot of these improvements to the governance module. So I think like the, you know, yes did this in a way bypass voting. It bypassed the voting period. What we did was we said this is not going to go into effect until a 2/3 super majority of all voting power. So we needed like 67% of the total chains stake to vote yes on this and only then did it go into effect immediately. And so I think having, I think building this sort of fast voting period into the governance module for these emergency situations is important. You know, I think to make sure it doesn't get abused. The general sentiment should be, you know, the general norm should be that you should know with veto something that is trying to use the fast voting process when it really doesn't need to be. So that will kind of keep that in check.
**A** (11:34):
So now moving forward, UST is pretty much dead. There has been more, like I said, we could have already had more USDC or USDT liquidity on osmosis also with incentive pools. But what do you think moving forward is now the big learning for that for the osmosis platform in terms of liquidity distribution for stablecoins? I don't know if you heard the presentation from Zaki and Dan about ist. Do you think there should be maybe one predominant stablecoin that has the most liquidity or diversified as good as possible to mitigate potential risks?
**B** (12:09):
Yeah, no, I think diversification across multiple stablecoins is really important. Part of the problem was we only had one like you know, US dollar IBC native stablecoin that was available and you know, we had this like whole bridge war on osmosis. I think it was maybe a little bit drawn out a little bit longer than it should have been. But you know, at the same time, you know, picking the bridges have their own set of risks that needed to be evaluated properly and stuff. And so but yeah, you know, like I said, hindsight is 2020 a little bit so it would be nice if things would execute a little bit faster there. But I think that's like one sort of big learning when it comes to like incentives and liquidity distribution. You know, there's been this like, I know that there's like a bunch of like Ethereum community members that have been like calling out that like hey, the Cosmos leaders and community hadn't been like calling out Terras enough. And like one, I think everyone had always been very clear and like communicative about the risks of the Terra protocol. But one of the things they also mentioned was like, hey, osmosis put a lot of liquidity incentives on the UST and Luna pairs and that was like irresponsible one. I would also like to say Curve, which is one of the biggest dexes on Ethereum also was about to just put all of its incentives on UST as well. So you know, kind of like pinning Cosmos people on this but Ethereum, one of the biggest Ethereum protocols is doing the same thing is not a fair, I don't know, a little bit dishonest. But I think the other part though is currently it's not like on osmosis. How incentives work today is governance White lists pools to be approved for incentives, but it doesn't actually say how much incentives go on it. The incentive process is done via this algorithm that takes into account things like volume and liquidity. And you know, the current incentive system of osmosis was designed to incentivize the pools that bring high amounts of volume to osmosis as a dex. And so it's not like we were like oh, we want to go put a third of incentives on UST because we love it. It was more like, well that was the pool that had high trading volume on osmosis and that's, you know, the incentives were done to reflect that. I think going forward we have to move into a world where the current algorithm is designed for looking at the current state of the, you know, dex and looking at volume and liquidity and putting incentives to match what is there right now. What we need to move towards is a world where osmosis governance needs to be more strategic and say hey, this is where we want incentives to, this is where we want liquidity to shift towards not just incentivize what's there now, but where to be more opinionated and more decisive on. And that's kind of like what this emergency proposal did was the first example of it where this was the first time osmosis liquidity incentives said we want a lot of USDC liquidity right now because it's important for the protocol. And there was this process of like hey, let's do a mass migration of incentives there. And I think like going forward the protocol needs to just be a lot more strategic on how it does liquidity incentives.
**A** (15:45):
Yeah, and I think your phone is ringing 247 right now. You also tweeted about it. You get a lot of messages from Terra devs. You also told me earlier that yesterday you've been on seven hour calls with Terra developers that are looking for a new home now. And I think the rest of the cosmos ecosystem is more than welcoming all these talents, developers, the community as well, which after all they also have been cosmonauts before part of the ecosystem. But how do you think this would benefit or affect the roadmap of osmosis from here on? Do you think it's going to become more of a smart contract platform where DEFI apps are being built on top of. Or how does this whole terror situation now affect the future of Osmosis?
**B** (16:32):
Yeah, so Osmosis already has COSM WASM on top of it. It has a permissioned COSM wasm. And this was already sort of what we were planning on doing was we wanted a way to allow. I think the Osmosis team was building a number of different things. And I think to build the best decks, there's a lot of components that go into it. Not just you need the AMMs, but you also need a lending protocol. You want arbitrage protocols, you need leverage Systems, you need ETFs, you need this whole suite of products that are really part of what is a dex. And we were kind of realized we were stretched very thin when we were trying to build all of this ourself. And that's why we added this permissioned cosmos to the chain to have this opportunity where we would be able to go find these external teams that can work with us on building this core functionality to the Dex and like, so that way, you know, but it has to, you know, the goal of Osmosis is not to be a generalized smart contracting platform. It should be a DEX app chain. But we need other contributors to be able to help contribute these core components. And that was sort of why we had the permission cosmwasm and what we were trying to do with it. And basically what just happened now was a large swath of cosmwasm developers who know how to build these primitive suddenly became looking for a new home. And, you know, we're sort of just in touch with a lot of the defi, you know, really focused on the DEFI side of things. But these DEFI apps that were currently built on Terra.
**A** (18:25):
Sam, we need names. Give us some alpha leaks. Come on.
**B** (18:28):
We need, you know, I mean, I don't want, like, nothing is committed. Right. You know, I think everyone is a little bit like trying to figure out everyone's kind of in this chaotic state. Some of these projects, they had their entire treasuries in UST and stuff. And they are also trying to regroup and figure out what's next and so want to give them space and stuff. But I will say that 90% of the Dapps on Terra were yield aggregators, which means they were wrappers around anchor. So, you know, we have to find like the projects that like, oh, you guys were actually. These were the projects that were like actually building legitimate DEFI protocols, like interesting things, you know, lending protocols, ETFs arbitrage protocols. You know, the things that like, you know, I think are important for building a defi ecosystem or sort of the people that we're sort of talking to specifically.
**A** (19:32):
Yeah, and I think also now that this whole yield chasing, like a lot of people burned their hands with it, so they're maybe a little bit taking it slower and they rather go for lower yields that have more security. And I think you as a core cosmonaut for many years, core contributor, developer, there have always been these discussions like what is the role of the Cosmos Hub and Atom in this cosmoverse and competitive landscape with the Luna Defi jungle? And all these kind of things. And now I think the fact that Atom has this more conservative approach is actually very good because we didn't have any major stuff going on, even though the yields are lower, but it's secure. So how do you think this whole situation now affects the positioning and outlook for the Cosmos Hub in Atom?
**B** (20:20):
I think the economic attack that happened on Terra basically like shows that like, look, we really need shared security and it's like this fundamentally important part of making the Cosmos network work. And so, you know, yeah, I think to me this was just more evidence that like shared security is important. One of the things that a lot of these terror depths, you know, they want, a lot of them want to eventually and the pitch that we're actually giving to a lot of them is like we want them to break off onto their own app chains as soon as possible. Right? Like use the Osmosis platform as this like incubator of sorts. You know, Binance has, Binance Labs, Osmosis has this like on chain incubator where we like, you know, permissioned projects that get to deploy here, but eventually they should break off onto their own app chains and like, you know, participate in this IBC based network and so shared secure. Hopefully by the time they're ready to do that, shared security is there for them to use. And this huge burst of new app chains that are going to come about via this, they need shared security to make this possible. One of the cool things, by the way, we have to go verify this because we haven't gotten a chance to do it fully. But I think superfluid staking actually helped secure Osmosis in this system because in the case that the Terra chain was attacked, there was more than one third of the pure staked osmo. More than a third of that was in the OSMO UST pool, but more than a third of it. But the amount in the UST osmo pool was less than the superfluid staked amount of osmo. And so that kind of actually showed that like the superfluid staking system of osmosis, like the idea that, hey, we can use defi assets to help secure the chain itself. It actually, you know, we never got into the case where it became an issue, but if it was actually osmosis would have been safe in that case because of superfluid staking.
**A** (22:28):
Let's do a couple of questions. I made a tweet that I'm going to interview you and like so many people have questions and then we're going to do some questions from the audience. One of them is how doable are buy orders stop losses on osmosis? I feel like after the lunar crash, people might be especially grateful for the latter.
**B** (22:47):
Yeah, so the. So I mean, a couple things, right? So one is one of the. For stop loss. Wait, so what was the specific one? Stop losses.
**A** (22:58):
Stop loss and buy orders.
**B** (23:00):
Yeah. So for stop losses, the problem is you actually. There's a issue with stop losses on chain, which is fundamentally a privacy issue, where if the stop losses are fully public, people will go stop loss hunting. And that's like, you know, not great because, you know, you could just, especially if you have like flash, if there's like flash loans or something, it's very easy to stop loss, hunt this and like profit that. But we actually, you know, I know maybe a lot of you might have heard I talk a lot about threshold encryption for mempool privacy because that's one of the things that osmosis really started with. But there's actually a lot of other uses for threshold encryption as well. So that was usually talking about threshold encryption for the mempool, but you can actually use it like threshold encryption on the app layer as well to encrypt stop loss orders. And then once a tick boundary like is hit, you decrypt all the data that was in there and you're like, okay, then. So there's actually really cool. This is always part of the plan of why we were building threshold encryption. It is important for these features on a deck, so stop loss and stuff will be there. I think one of the benefits of, like I said, we were already moving to this world where we were trying to get other people to help work on some of these other defi primitives. So that way the osmosis core dev teams could go and focus back in more on instead of us building the leverage and lending and everything. It's like we can Go focus on the actual trading engine as well as the lower level stuff like the threshold encryption and things like that. Hopefully we'll be able to get to this stuff much sooner now.
**A** (24:51):
Yeah, there's also a big event coming up. I get this question so much. The OSMO thirdening. Is it June 19th, something like that?
**B** (24:59):
18Th or 19th?
**A** (25:00):
Yeah. So if it's 19th it would be my birthday. That would be cool because I think you guys launched on 19th of June last year, right? Yeah, that was a good surprise. Thanks for that airdrop by the way. But so a lot of people, I mean maybe you can explain a little bit regards of the general tokenomics what the third inning means and how do you think this is going to affect OSMO moving forward?
**B** (25:22):
Yeah, so the third inning was there's this running joke where Ethereum community often says this to us where it's like the Cosmos community is all just a bunch of undercover bitcoin maximalists, which is half true maybe. So bitcoin has this whole happening system and so we wanted to kind of pay respect to that in the osmosis tokenomics so we created something called the thirdening where how the token model works is in the first year there was so there was 100 million tokens in Genesis, but then in the first year there was 300 million new tokens issued. And then what will happen is every year after that it's going to get cut by one third. So year two it's going to be 200 million new tokens issued and then year three it'll be 133 million and so on and so on.
**A** (26:19):
Bullish.
**B** (26:20):
Yeah, and so you know, basically what's going to happen is token issuance is going to go down and so you know there'll be less like. Yeah, so and then what happens is like, you know it follows this like asymptotical where there'll be like 900 million new tokens issued ever plus the 100 million from Genesis gives it a fixed total cap supply of 1 billion tokens. Right. So you know, we thought that this like you know, more fixed supply token model is, you know, what we wanted to go for. And so what that's going to mean is that you know, supply issuance is going to go down but that also means that like rewards will also have to go down as well. Right. The amount Today there's around 300 million divided by 365. It's like somewhere around 800,000 something Osmo issued per day that's going to also get cut by one third. So the nominal APRs in Osmo terms are going to go down in all the pools. But potentially similar to in bitcoin happenings as the supply issuance goes down, that will also cause less daily sell pressure on the, on the token as well. And so, you know, it'll, I think it'll end up working out basically. But that also means because there's less OSMO to distribute. This kind of goes back to what I was saying where it's important for Osmosis governance to really start. You know, I think we've been like, say saying this for a while but like, you know, what will often happen is there's you know, not to call out any particular tokens, but we definitely have things where like, you know, there's like tokens that are definitely not the most popular but like half the ballot, you know, half the governance like ends up just auto voting abstain on like should these things get incentive and like they end up passing with like slight margins. But most people voted abstain. And it's like, I think it is important for validators and stakers and the governance of the network to like, you know, really start being more aware of like, you know, as the incentives are, know the incentives to give out are shrinking, we have to be more strategic on where we want to put these incentives. We're also working on like some remodels of OSMO incentives. So one of the things we've been sort of working on like whiteboarding with the Axelar team was so we have this issue, so some alpha leak here where we. So there's this issue where the APRs on the Osmo USDC and ETH&DAI pools today are going to be very high because we moved a lot of incentives over to them. So there's a lot of incentive to LP into these pools. But we don't want people to just sell half their OSMO into the pool and then pair it with USDC to lp. Right? So the Osmosis foundation actually has a grant of 1% of the AXELAR supply granted from the Axelar foundation for us to give out as external liquidity incentives. And so what we're actually going to be doing. So the AXLR token is not liquid right now, but once it is, we're going to basically be doing a retroactive liquidity incentive airdrop basically where what we're going to do is not just track how much is LP'd, but we're going to track, you have to bridge over assets and LP them. So there's basically going to be tracking how much assets are you bridging over Axlar. And the more you bridge over it, like increases your counter. And when you LP it, you'll get more these axelar tokens based off of how much you bridge. And then LP it has to be this like compound action you can't bridge over. And you know, we thought about the edge cases. You can't like bridge over tokens, send them to another account, send them back and loop it or something. Right? That will also, every time you send out, that will decrease your counter as well. So that's sort of. And I think this is actually what we, you know, we thought about it because of this, like, oh, you know, this OSMO USDC pool is like very unique. But we thought about it like, hey, we should actually be doing this for all incentive pools, right? We shouldn't be incentivizing people to dump half their OSMO rewards every day to compound. We should be having incentives for people to bring in more and more liquidity over time. So I think we'll definitely expect that. Like, I think this is a change that would be really great to see where like in all the pools that, you know, you should get like multipliers on your liquidity rewards for bringing in new assets.
**A** (31:05):
There we go, another alpha leak. We're already almost five minutes over time. I think Yuri, if we are too long, then just come on stage and kick us off. But there's so many questions. We're gonna go through one or two more of them and I think the audience is still there. I think it's full, actually. So you want to hear Sunny's latest alpha and thoughts about the state? Here's one. What learnings can the cosmos community take from the UST Death Sparrow?
**B** (31:39):
I think that's like a general thing that I kind of covered overall. But like, I don't know, I feel like kind of covered that as course of the. I mean, look, I mean, algo stables, they're scary, right? And I think I've talked about this at length where I've always told people, look, remember my ionize proposal? I was like, terra is one of the most risky mechanisms in crypto. Like, ionize will be the riskier version of that. So let's experiment.
**A** (32:11):
There's actually also a question. Please don't experiment. How is ionize getting forward? So what's the hottest on that?
**B** (32:16):
Yeah, like, I mean, yeah, you know, probably not a great idea to go build ionize as proposed because, you know, it was meant to be a hyper Experimental protocol and obviously I don't think it's the right design now. I still don't think it was the right design even what it was, but it was an economic experiment that I was interested in running. But yeah, so I think the Ion Dao, I think Alpha Works, which is the team that does the development for it. I think they just put a Commonwealth proposal up just now. They're ready to basically deploy it. You can check out the testnet version at Ion. Wtf? You can. So now kind of what had stagnated the Ion system for a while was there was no way for them to vote on what they're going to build. And so now that Dao is finally going live, they're going to be able to vote on what they want to build. And so I know there's been a lot of ideas floated around over collateralized stablecoin lending protocol. There's a bunch of things that they had ideas for. So we'll, we'll see what it ends up choosing.
**A** (33:20):
Then somebody saying I dream of a cross chain Dex when I will be able to trade osmosis on osmosis with Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, etc. So when do you think we are ready to have the whole cryptoverse on Osmosis?
**B** (33:38):
Hopefully pretty soon Axelar is live and running so it's able to connect us to any EVM based chain right now. And then you can also use EVM overlays on some of these chains. For example, on Polkadot there's Moonbeam and then on near there's Aurora. So that actually will give us access to a lot of the things. I know the Axelar team is working on their bitcoin side of things. They originally started with Bitcoin but just because of how the bitcoin protocol updated they wanted change out their threshold crypto they were using for Schnorr signatures. So that's why I kind of got delayed a little bit. One thing to note by the way, you know you'll notice that on Frontier WBTC was added. You know our plan was to hold off on. I think there's a proposal going up on Commonwealth today or something which was like, you know, the plan was to hold off on Bitcoin until we get native Bitcoin but just given this like movement towards liquidity diversification right now we should probably at least bring over WBTC and. And then when there's a native bitcoin bridge available we can figure out how to migrate liquidity over to that instead. So yeah, and then we're also in touch with the Wormhole team about adding Solana support as well. Not just one, just be able to bridge over Sol, but also their Pith Oracles are something that we definitely want to get on top of Osmosis. I think Pith is probably the right design for how to build Oracles. They have confidence intervals and stuff, which is awesome. One of the things we're actually building with the Axelar team right now as this sort of joint product is it doesn't have a name yet. If anyone has a cool name, let us know. But basically centralized exchanges, there's two UXs you could go for. There's the centralized exchange model where we. Which is what the Osmosis zone front end is really meant to mimic, where you have deposit assets, you can trade on it. But then there's also like the Shapeshift style experience. Right. Where you just want to. You have ETH on Ethereum and you want Avax on Avalanche. Right. You have Metamask Wallet. You don't even have Kepler installed yet. How do you do that? Right. So we're working with the Axel, our team on building, you know, let's call it Osmoswap or something like that. But basically you can just make a single transaction on Ethereum and it will get picked up by the Axelar network. Axelar will use interchain accounts to do a swap on Osmosis and then it will send you the Avax to your destination chain on Avalanche. So if you're ever jumping between EVM chains, for example, you know, you need fees for the other chain. It's like you can do this using this like sort of joint. Very Shapeshift UX style project. So. Yeah. So look out for this. Definitely something we're prioritizing.
**A** (36:41):
Okay, last question. Someone's asking, where can I get Sonny's T shirt?
**B** (36:50):
Cosmoverse Lisbon. Last year was. We are working. Yeah. Maybe we only issued this for. Maybe we have to have a different version for every Cosmoverse. Right? I don't know.
**A** (37:07):
Pablo Escobar. Picture was Moncton. Escobar. Something like this.
**B** (37:14):
I know the Osmosis Ministry of Marketing has definitely been working on like putting up a swag store so people can buy Osmoswag. And ideally what we want is something where you can buy swag on the amm, you know, like Unisox. But we should do that for all of the swag on Osmosis. We'll see what we end up doing, though.
**A** (37:38):
We'll see. Yeah. And for those that don't know. Next year. No, this year, September, late September, we're going to have Cosmoverse in Medellin, Colombia. That's going to be really nice. So stay tuned for that. Yeah. Thanks, Sunny. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for the Gateway organizers, this was amazing. And I'll see you all in Medellin.