**A** (0:00):
Hey, I think we are live. Hello everyone and welcome to today's unstoppable livestream with Akash and Osmosis. My name is Adam Wozny and I head up community at Akash. I'll also be your host for today's conversation. Today we're going to be discussing the launch of Osmosis with two of crypto's finest, in my opinion, Greg Usuri and Sunny Aggarwal. If you have questions throughout today's livestream, feel free to ask them in the chat and we'll respond to as many as we can at the end of our conversation. One other quick note, after the live stream is over, be sure to follow both Osmosis and Akash on Twitter and Telegram to keep this conversation going. So before we get into the conversation, I wanted to kick off today's livestream with a few Akash updates since we last held our livestream. So first up, we announced our sixth exchange listing on Bittrex Global, one of the most trusted crypto exchange platforms known for the security, trading and and digital wallet infrastructure. Additionally, we had a seventh exchange listing on Behex, a leading technology driven crypto asset trading platform. One of my favorite big announcements that we just launched was We've been selected. Akash has been selected to support the Helium Network, the largest peer to peer wireless Internet of things network and provide a decentralized open source and low cost cloud alternative for for Helium's new blockchain validators. Very cool. And then lastly which we're going to be discussing here today, AKT was added to the launch of the Osmosis Dex which allows anyone on the Internet or anyone with an Internet connection the opportunity to gain access to AKT and start deploying on the Akash network. To learn about these announcements and many many more, subscribe to our newsletter and follow our blog@akash.net so before we jump into today's conversation, I want to introduce my guest and first up, many of you already know him, it's Greg Osuri. Greg is the CEO of Akash and a passionate open source developer advocate. So welcome Greg and I was just hoping you could give our attendees a quick introduction for folks that might not be aware of who you are.
**B** (2:10):
Sure. Thanks Adam. My name is Greg Osuri. I'm the founder and CEO of Akash Network.
**A** (2:18):
Perfect, concise, right to the point. Love it. Next up we have Sunny Agarwal. Sunny is the co founder of Sika and Osmosis so he's the perfect person to have on today's livestream so Sunny.
**C** (2:30):
Yeah.
**A** (2:30):
Introduce yourself to some of the folks watching.
**C** (2:33):
Hey guys. Yeah, my name is Sunny as mentioned. Yep. I was the co founder of Sika and one of the co founders of Osmosis. I've been working in the Cosmos ecosystem for about four years now. And you know, I'm also an advisor to the Akash Network or to overclock and yeah, just really fan of finally seeing like, I feel like in the last one week we've seen like, I feel Cosmos has actually just like finally just come alive and so really excited.
**B** (2:59):
To see Dragon awake.
**A** (3:04):
I know a lot of, lot of work in there. We'll get into some of those things in a minute here. So thank you guys for those introductions. We do have a lot to cover today, so I wanted to jump right into some of the questions for each of you as a reminder to everyone watching at home or in the office or at a coffee shop. Leave your questions in the comment section and we'll do our best to get to as many of them as we can at the end of our conversation. So first up, I have a question for Greg. So I did give a brief intro to Akash at the beginning of the live stream, but I think folks at home would like to hear from you directly. You know, the CEO and founder Akash. So if you could just tell me a little bit about where the Akash Network is today and maybe a few of the things that you're excited about that we're building out for the future.
**B** (3:46):
Absolutely. I mean, for me, the graph that really matters is the Akash analytics graph. So what that entails is how we are being used. All right, just give me, give me one second.
**A** (4:04):
No worries.
**B** (4:06):
Give me one second. Are you here? Okay, here we are. Sorry, technology issues. Yeah. So so far we saw the things you don't see on the graph. We kind of track internally and we kind of like, you know, add our own insights into it. The most exciting insight for me is a week, week over week growth. We saw about what, 17% week over week growth in total deployments. That's humongous if you think about, you know, we're three months in and we're still seeing that very heavy, like, you know, growth numbers. Hopefully this will last for a while and if that does happen, we're off to the races. Right. One of the most exciting, you know, things that happened in the last few weeks with Akash is of course osmosis here. I mean, the. And of course osmosis being the first dex and seeing the first real use case For IBC and Akash being in the forefront, we helped develop IBC Relayer and more importantly Osmosis API servers and nodes are actually running on Akash. So it's a self serving ecosystem at this point. So you can essentially look at the AKT osmosis pool and if you're a developer or a validator associated with osmosis, you can actually pay for your compute using osmosis tokens by exchanging them on the DEX to AKT and using that AKT to pay for your compute. And since the gas price is so low, it's actually practical and feasible to do it a lot more frequently in terms of exchanging other tokens. So that's the first sort of self fulfilling. There is no touching fiat here. Absolutely right. So it's just pure OSMO that's minted on the osmosis chain that can be used on a KT that can be translated, I mean converted to AKT and used for hosting. So I'm super excited about that. I think we're going to see a lot more of these use cases. I would love to see some of the persistence hosts that'll be hosting Akash and some of the DVPN nodes that we host in Akash all, you know, not touch fiat at all and actually use AKT through ibc. Several other amazing projects that I've seen come up on Akash, one of them happened to be open registry. So for those of you that work with containers, know Container, the Docker Hub, the premium registry for containers is closed and it has its own set of issues. So our community came up with the idea of hosting that in an open way. And one the way they're doing this hosting is amazing. I just happened to see a demo where they use Skynet SIA as the storage layer for the Linux container images and Akash as a processing layer. Now that wouldn't happen. You know, storage has amazing use cases. That's impossible without using something like Akash. Right. So we're seeing these amazing new use cases for a lot of the storage tokens or storage networks being because of Akash and Open Container being one of them Yesterday thanks to there is no max here maxim, you're seeing amazing UIs being built. One of the things that I take a lot of pride in Akash Network is its openness and it's permissionless nature of it. So we don't have to necessarily build everything we feel the user community needs to use Akash, but rather have community built these amazing tools. So thank you so much for that for really adding conviction to our values. Right. So lots of amazing things being built, lots of amazing growth. Of course, the last but not the least feature is, of course we have amazing liquidity with the osmosis. Dexnav, I believe AKT alone has about $13 million of liquidity. What that means is your slippage is so low, if you were to perform a buy or a sell operation for a KD pairs, last I checked for one of the pools for Atom pool, we saw about less than 2% slippage for $50,000 transaction, which is the best liquidity we had in the history so far. So none of the centralized exchanges could actually provide a kind of liquidity to us. And that's a testament on why a decentralized exchange is the most efficient liquidity provisioning mechanism in crypto. So I'm super excited. This whole week has just been amazing, amazing things for Akash in the ecosystem. I can go on, but I'll stop there for now.
**A** (8:44):
No, it's good. I actually took a note just because I feel like I want to make a T shirt. You said pure Osmo and you're like, no, fiat. I'm like, that's a T shirt waiting to be made. So if anybody wants to memeify that a pure Osmo, I think that that's a great idea.
**B** (8:58):
I think the mascot. I don't know what we call it, the mascot, but I vote for Ozzy Osbourne.
**A** (9:06):
What is it? George Somethington or something? I feel like I've seen that.
**B** (9:10):
Washington.
**C** (9:11):
Yes, I have a lot of questions.
**B** (9:14):
Wasmton.
**A** (9:16):
Yeah. Before we get. Before we move on, I do have a question for you, Sonny. Where did that. Do you know where that came from? Where did that come from? That nickname there?
**C** (9:23):
So I made a tweet about a couple weeks ago. I don't know, I just thought it was funny that bear arms sounded like bear farms. And I made a tweet where it's like, I just changed the text of the second Amendment and I was like, oh, something osmosis will fight for your right to bear farms or something like that. And I just tagged it with George Wasmington because I was able to put osmo in there. And it makes no sense. George Washington didn't write the Bill of Rights. Like, I don't know why. But then some. There's like some guy like. So then there's a validator now called Wasmington. And I think he just took that and really just started memeing that into. And somehow that's became. Come the name, like I didn't even expect that was like a one throwaway joke and somehow that's become his name and you know, that's what, that's what community driven, you know, development is.
**A** (10:15):
So, yeah, I guess some of the.
**B** (10:18):
Best products Internet never disappoint.
**A** (10:21):
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I was curious about that myself. So I would like to see. Here's another challenge to people watching make a George Washington floating in the Pontomac, like in the. You know, with holding an American flag or something or maybe like a crypto flag. That'd be cool. So now onto real things here. So Sunny, I just wanted to see if you could give us kind of a brief overview of Osmosis. You know, what the people watching on the stream should kind of know. Know about the project.
**C** (10:50):
Yeah, sure. So Osmosis is a dex that's built for the Cosmos ecosystem. We were, we've been working on this now for. It depends on what you, what you define as it. Right. Like, I guess, you know, you could say maybe we've been working on for six months. You know, maybe it is from when we started working on Cosmos for four years. I don't know. But yeah, so we, we saw that. Hey, okay, there's all these chains coming on on Cosmos. I had these ideas about, like, maybe the best way to do it is tell the story, the timeline of how it started. So about last year beginning, we went through what we call Gore 2020, the great organizational restructuring of early 2020. So that's when like, you know, a lot of people like sort of left the Tendermint company and but then started creating new companies that are still like, all contributing to the Cosmos ecosystem. And so me and my co founder, Dave, we. So we had a validator that we called Sika. And so we're like, so we left Tendermint and we just like started working on Sika. And we're like, okay, let's run these validators. Let's run more validators. And we also just were contributing upstream to the Cosmos SDK and Tendermint. And so we started doing that and then after a while we just felt like we're like, hey, we don't really like running validators. I want to go back to building something. So we're like, all right, what do we build around? Then we got really interested in the front running, like mev because that's like this was last summer and the MEV was just going crazy on Ethereum and we were just like, let's figure out how to solve this problem. And so we started building out, we spent a couple of months actually designing a solution and we came up with a pretty good solution called, you know, threshold encryption. And then so we took that and we're like, hey, let's start building this. And then eventually we realized, wait, this is a feature, not a product. So what's the product here? And this is sort of when then this is the time where we merged with the Chain Access team. So Chain Axis was the ones that they built the Kepler wallet, which is the most popular wallet for Cosmos ecosystem. And so they had actually built a little the V0 of osmosis at a hackathon project last year. And so we're like, hey, let's just merge together and start building this osmosis Dex. And it'll be like sort of the, it'll be the product to take our front running stuff public as well. And so yeah, since then this happened all basically in December of 2020. And then for the last six months we've just been sort of taking a hackathon project and productionizing it, adding in all the liquidity incentives and all the things that you see on osmosis today. And it was really just launched last week and it really was sort of the first actual real usage of ibc. So IBC has been out for about a couple months now. But like you saw like daily there'd be or weekly there'd be like 100 IBC transfers. But then now we're getting like in the tens of thousands, like daily. And so we're just seeing IBC finally being like put to work and use at scale.
**A** (14:18):
So I was just kind of thinking, as you're talking, I'm going to go a little bit off the questions that we kind of reviewed. But I mean, I'm curious and I think some of the folks at home would be curious, you know, what was that war room like launch day last week? Take your bills back to last week. Was it Saturday last weekend? What was it like being in the room with all the people building it and actually clicking? I'm imagining there's a big red button and you just click launch and then fireworks blowing up. What was it like in that room when that happened?
**C** (14:45):
Yeah, so one part is this was actually the first time where I met a lot of the team. So this started as a quarantine project. So a lot of the team from Korea especially, I met them for the first time. And just also people even from the US that I just met for the first time, the launch week, which is really fun and yeah, so we actually did something a little bit interesting where we actually launched the chain like one day before we sort of publicly announced the launch. And we did this because when you launch, we really wanted to get the UX of osmosis, right? And so to do that we wanted like a 24 hour period where we can have time to go set up all the IBC connections, set up the front end, set up the Akash nodes that are running some of the back ends for a lot of this stuff. So yeah, we added like 24 hour period where we could go ahead and do that. And then both of those days were pretty crazy. So the first day was getting the chain launch. There's no one big red button that any one person can press because at the end of the day it's a decentralized thing. And so we had all the people who were Genesis validators, they all started their nodes. There's one validator that accidentally had more than 33% of the stake at Genesis. And so, and they didn't realize that it was like they got the launch, they got confused with the public and like public launch date versus the chain launch date. And so it took a couple hours for the chain to come online just because of that. But, you know, as soon as we came on, everything went fine. And now, you know, chain is chugging along quite well. And then the public launch day was just a little bit crazy because we just did not expect this. Like, we were like, all right, you're going to get a couple hundred users, people are going to start trickling in. It's like all of our stuff was just like overloaded the breakfast day and we're like, oh my God. But everything should be running smoothly now. Still some stuff that's like being fixed right now. There's like some gas stuff that like the gas, the gas cost for every time someone does a bonding transaction is going really high and that's like causing, you know, filling up blocks. So we're working on a fix for that and both like a fixing how, why it's doing it and also just a temporary fix to increase the gas limit. So for anyone listening, please like hold off on the bonding transactions right now.
**B** (17:13):
Wow.
**A** (17:14):
Yeah, for sure.
**B** (17:15):
To keep your hands away from. But yes, I'm glad to hear the, the system took the load. Right. So Akash functioned really well. So this is the first major launch of a project on Akash. So I'm really happy things seem to be normal. Of course, once this scale up, once these gas issues with the miners get handled. It's more of a UX problem more than anything else, I would think. Right. So it'll hopefully get solved, but system is functioning great. System is working about what, $50 million plus plus worth of liquidity. I mean that's without a bridge. I mean that's something, right? Like no bridges yet. Imagine what will happen if the bridges come. So yeah, I'm super excited. It's a great launch and I love the photo that you had with the Sunny and the millions and like, hey, sbf, watch out, we got a contender here. That's awesome. Where was that photo taken?
**C** (18:13):
So we're actually all in Miami right now. So we came here for like the bitcoin week. Turns out we didn't do anything at bitcoin. We've basically been living. I've been going between my bed and the wework for the last.
**B** (18:26):
I didn't see you at bitcoin, but some of my investors saw you and they were like, hey, we found someone that's talking about akt. I'm like.
**C** (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, cool, cool.
**A** (18:37):
Thank you for that, Sunny. And I think it's good for the folks at home to see, you know, there was a build up. You guys kind of came together. First time you all met was at launch day, launch weekend, which is pretty cool. Kind of getting into. As you were building it out, as you were kind of thinking through the build for Osmosis, what were maybe some of the big challenges that you and your team faced along the way? It could be the decentralized nature of the team being in different time zones. It could be a big technical challenge. But if there's anything that kind of popped up in your head, you're like, oh man, are we ever going to reach this launch date? Because this thing's happened. Do you have any kind of like story like that or what was the major challenge you guys faced?
**C** (19:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's like a lot of like challenges that we face over time, you know, like on the team one. Yeah, I guess like, you know, the time zones are definitely a big issue. I think part of it is one of the co founders actually doesn't speak English. And so it's like, you know, learning how to like, you know, work in such a truly global team is like very interesting. And so it's like that provided some challenges that we, you know, we were able to work through on the technical side. You know, just figuring out how to, you know, I mean, even just building this entire like AMM thing, like, luckily we didn't work too much on the logic side yet, because what we have right now is we've kind of cloned Balancer and put it onto the Cosmos SDK. But, you know, just an AMM is a pretty. It seems, you know, just X times Y equals K. Right. But. But it's actually, when you go into it, there's a lot of complexity in the math and stuff. And so making sure that was all done correctly. And we were just really nervous about ibc. I think getting all the relayers working correctly. This is still something we're working on right now, where we have the Go relayer and the Rust relayer running in parallel, so that way they can pick up each other's slack. But turns out maybe that was a bad idea because I think now they're getting a little bit confused with each other, by each other. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot of, like these, like, sort of. I think Osmosis was just. There's a lot of stuff that was like, built already, like tooling that exists. Like, for example, we also told all the validators to use Cosmovisor, which is like a way of automatically upgrading people's nodes. And it's like a lot of these tools have been built for the Cosmos ecosystem, but they haven't been used at scale yet. And so I think, like, that's something that we were very like, you know, oh, my God, this is kind of scary. And like, we had to do a lot of testing around a lot of those things.
**A** (21:12):
Yeah, qa.
**B** (21:13):
Everyone's a lot of firsts, right? We have a lot of amazing. I'm just looking forward to, hopefully your team publishing some of the best practices or at least some of the content. I think we learned quite a bit on how to launch. Did you use a Starport or is that.
**C** (21:32):
No, we did not use Starport. We just went via the normal traditional genesis on GitHub.
**B** (21:40):
GitHub, yeah. It'd be great to just like to read about your experiences. We can share with them.
**C** (21:47):
Yeah. Actually, one thing that maybe is also worth mentioning is the UX of ibc. I think that's something that we. Something we had to spend a lot of time thinking about. So, you know, we want to make sure there's. On IBC is a complicated thing, and we try to hide that as much from the users as possible. If you go on the web, if you go on the Osmosis app, I don't think we actually use the word IBC anywhere on, like the page. It's just like, you know, just deposit and withdraw. Right, but how do we do this in like a very decentralized way or more user friendly way? Because on chain the assets just show up as like IBC Dash and then it's like 64 character long hex string and it's like what, ah, you can't even understand what that is. And so you know, one of the things we did was we created something called asset lists. It's this idea similar to token list on Ethereum, but it's basically it's a mapping between the chain denom and then all the metadata needed to do this. And because the thing is we have multiple front ends for Osmosis already. So you know, we have the one that's the Osmosis app that both people use, there's another one called Osmosis Imperator Co and that's sort of more like the uniswap.info where it's like it gives you all the price data, right, like historical price data. But then you know, also they're going to have volume and liquidity very soon and they have a really cool API that's going to be being used by Coingecko soon. But yeah, so you know, having this asset list as this like way for all of these front ends to sort of like do easily access the metadata of these tokens and stuff. So hopefully we can turn that into a cosmos wide standard soon and then yeah, just like figuring out a lot of this tooling on getting IDC more user friendly, that was one of the main challenges that we had to tackle.
**B** (23:37):
Yeah, we had so many questions, especially on this channel life cycle and the security of the channel, detecting, determining the secure the stored asset. Lots and lots of questions. But I'm just amazed to see the smooth experience osmosis did mean. Not too many people appreciate the complexities that you have to build abstractions on top of. So thank you so much. There's a lot of learning. I'm just particularly excited what comes out of it and how many new chains we're going to enable. Right. So because of this beautiful, yeah, pioneering knowledge.
**A** (24:15):
Cool. Yeah. So we're getting a lot of great questions coming in from the live chat. So keep those questions coming. We're going to try to get to those at the end of our conversation. I have a couple more questions for you guys and then we're going to open it up to the audience. But first, this one's for Greg. So from your perspective, you know, what does this mean for AKT now that it can be, you know, swapped With Osmo Atom. Any other listed tokens on Osmosis.
**B** (24:42):
Like I said, you know, for us it's just, well, it's not a secret that AKT liquidity wasn't the best. I mean we had amazing. No matter how many exchanges we go to, it's just the liquidity hasn't quite caught up with the demand. So I'm particularly excited to have a very healthy order book for Akash. And turns out the solution was an AMM provide to get the depth, the ideal depth. Now about $50,000 under 2% slippage. Right. So that in itself is a huge win not only for us. Look at what happened with dvpn, right? So with, with our friends at Sentinel, they're going through a similar process and a big challenge right now. Not too many people talk about it because we're in the process of running a company and getting the token more liquid is the. If you are not an ERC20 token or one of the exchange tokens, that means if you're not like a BSE token, if you're not like one of those tokens, it's next to impossible to get listed because there's a heavy integration work that they need to do or unless the exchange has a huge upside, which is a different story. Right. So a lot of times you're like, well what comes first? Does liquidity come first or does the exchange listen come first? Right. It's a chicken or egg problem we're into. So, you know, exchanges don't list non ERC20 tokens unless there is liquidity that they think you can attract. So now amazing projects in the Cosmos ecosystem that have live usage and live adoption that's growing around the utility are stuck in so many ways. And osmosis is an answer. Even projects of Akash stature Now we're what, 150 top 150 in terms of market cap. With close to about $300 million in market cap. Even projects like that are having trouble getting liquidity. And I think Osmosis just changed the game, just crushed the whole thing. So I'm super excited what Osmosis did, not only for us, like I said to dbpn, now we are seeing with the Regen network, which is a new token that's just a Cosmos ecosystem token. I'm super excited about it. I'm going to ape into it. So some alpha there, but now for that, for someone like, like something like, you know, Regen, just a launch on a platform, they were attracted about three to four million dollars in liquidity Right. It's just, it's not even one week. So you have this.
**C** (27:06):
Region actually did something. Region actually has something called. They're using something called a liquidity bootstrapping pool. So you know, with, with AKT for example, you know, it still was on some exchanges so there was this like public price that was known but for Region they. This was the first time they were doing so any sort of public sale and they didn't know what the price is. And so they actually. We created something called the liquidity bootstrapping pool where it's basically a system that it's an. It's an AMM that sort of acts like an auction at the same time where it start. The price starts really high and then it starts to slowly drop and then people can like start over like a five day period and people can like start buying and selling when they think the price is at the right point. And so this, I think these LVPs will be like, make it even easier for us. Like. Oh, you don't even have to. It'll make it very easier to start by launching a token like via Osmosis.
**B** (28:01):
I love that. If I remember correctly, did it began with a 85% to 15% split between regen and Osmosis and Atom. And as the price keeps coming down obviously the percentage of osmos of. Sorry of region comes down and it, the atom goes up to a point, to a point where it's 50 50. Right. So that's when the final price. I love that. I love the.
**C** (28:31):
And then it just looks like a normal AMM at that point and it's. And then people can start adding more liquidity and you go seamlessly from the auction and this. Then now you have an AMM pool.
**B** (28:43):
Right, Right. Is that the first time people are doing something like this or.
**C** (28:46):
No, no. So this idea of LVP is actually also borrowed from Balancer as well. And so there's a couple of protocols that have done this on Balancer. The one that I know best is actually called Radical because the co founders of Radical used to work at Tendermint like two or three years ago. But yeah, so they actually used the Balancer LVP as well. So we borrowed that idea from them. But we have actually a lot of ideas of how to improve. Improve it because I think the way it's done right now there's a lot of, a lot of room for improvement. So you know, LVP and we're just seeing a lot of demand from like Cosmos projects like you know I think Stargaze has like reached out to us being like, hey, we want to do it lvp. And then like DESMOS has reached out to us and so we're like, all right, I think we're going to start like working on this like LBP 2.0, so providing even better experience for all this new initial liquidity offerings, I guess.
**B** (29:40):
There you have it. So you have a launch pad for Cosmos ecosystem tokens. Yeah. So lots of things to be excited about for us. Like I said, creating a self sustaining ecosystem. Now you can see with liquidity bootstrapping, the ecosystem is self serving itself. We want to see more, of course, trading pairs that are more stable in nature come to osmosis. So lots of exciting things coming to Osmosis.
**A** (30:08):
Cool. So I have one more softball question for you guys and then I'm looking through these audience questions and they're going to get a little bit more difficult for you. So just from kind of both your perspectives, how do you perceive osmosis kind of benefiting developers, investors and businesses?
**B** (30:29):
I can take that if not sunny. You want to take it?
**C** (30:32):
Go ahead.
**B** (30:34):
Well, developers, obviously now you have liquidity bootstrapping mechanisms that you don't have to go through a centralized exchange and you can build sovereign chains and still get liquidity for that sovereign chain. That's the first time I'm hearing right. So as developers for us, I've been through this whole process is like when you're building a blockchain based product, you have to decide what you want to optimize for. Do you optimize for liquidity first or do you optimize for usability first? Right. You had to make the trade off so far. So if you optimize for liquidity, you end up creating a ERC20 pair and that's not actually usable, especially something like a cloud deployment token. Right. Or if you optimize for usability, you end up something like a cache where people are actually using a KT to deploy things. I find it very hard that you will use a ERC20 token to deploy something. Right. Because of the gas cost. Just ridiculous. And osmosis is a paradigm shift that the developers no longer need to make the trade off. I think that's a huge deal. So many projects with incredible, incredible utility and I would just cry myself every time I advise them to actually go with the ERC 20 to begin with to bootstrap liquidity. So now we don't have that problem. And soon enough the bridge is going to get built between ERC20 and Cosmos ecosystem. Now we can attract that liquidity as well. It's very easy to see the osmosis just becoming a massive liquidity provider very, very soon for investors. Obviously you have better liquidity, so it's is great for everybody. And what's the third category of people that you said would benefit?
**A** (32:23):
I said developers, investors and businesses.
**B** (32:28):
Businesses get to use for a cautious. You know, you have both your data centers as well as your tenants. Right. So they get to actually, you know, use AKT and liquidate AKT without incurring huge slippage. So it's everybody wins here.
**A** (32:49):
Cool. Anything to add, Sonny? Or you feel like that's about spot on?
**C** (32:53):
I think that's pretty spot on. Yep.
**A** (32:55):
You guys planned this out. You're like right down here.
**C** (32:57):
She's fine.
**A** (32:59):
Cool. So that kind of wraps up my questions, but we've got a lot of questions coming in from the chat. If you guys.
**B** (33:05):
I have a few more questions. I mean, this is.
**A** (33:07):
Oh yeah, please.
**B** (33:09):
Getting asked. What is I on?
**C** (33:13):
I don't know, I just. Okay, it just happened. And I woke up one day and I'm like, wow, what did I do last night? There's a couple of commits from me and I just added this ion thing. I don't remember what I was thinking last night, but I guess it's there now.
**B** (33:33):
Is that the answer we're sticking with?
**C** (33:35):
That's seriously. What. Yeah, it's the truth.
**B** (33:40):
Do you know any supply matrix of it?
**C** (33:42):
Yeah, there's about 21. There's about 21,000 something, like 200 something or so. I do remember what the distribution mechanism was, but I'm excited to see if people figure it out.
**B** (33:58):
Okay. Okay.
**C** (34:00):
I'd rather let it be. You know, some people are guessing, oh, is it random or. It's not random. There's a. There was a logic to it, but.
**B** (34:09):
I see.
**C** (34:09):
We'll see if people figure it out.
**B** (34:11):
Well, I did hear a few things. I think I did hear, if you participated in Cosmos governance, you get ion airdrop. I didn't get ion airdrop, so I never participated in the governance, I suppose. So 21 million ions in existence. What are they going for now? 21,000.
**C** (34:29):
21,000. Yeah. Yeah.
**B** (34:31):
So what is it going to like a thousand dollars, thousand plus dollars now per ion?
**C** (34:35):
I don't know. I don't really check that much. You go on the Imperator website. I think they have like a. I don't know if it's on their website. I know they have an endpoint that Shows like the prices for some of these tokens because they're trying to get that over to the Coin Gecko team. But yeah, it's been a little bit crazy. I mean, I didn't expect it to. People seem to like their ion.
**B** (34:57):
You know, it is what it is. It's the ion that's the ion.
**C** (35:01):
What's really cool, though, is what we've seen is actually the community has started. Like, there's a Telegram group and people are coming up with proposals for how they can build use ions to add utility to it and make it something useful within the Osmosis ecosystem. And so I think I'm really excited to see this sort of community being formed around this token.
**B** (35:24):
Yeah, absolutely. Second question. Any plants are using HNS DNS for osmosis?
**C** (35:32):
Ah, yeah. So we actually have the handshake names already. So we have the DNS names. I guess I can point it at it. I'm actually not too familiar with, like, how do you use HNS domains? Like, do you have to, like, run namespace?
**B** (35:50):
Well, there's a hosted solution called Namebase that makes your life a lot simpler. You can go through that or you can figure out this dli.
**C** (35:57):
No, no. So I have them on Nate, I have them on Namebase already. But my question is, like, as a user, how do I type? Where do I type in a handshake name?
**B** (36:06):
Oh, so Namebase hosts the DNS, Right? You can put the DNS entry there. And if you're hosting the UI on wherever. Akash, there's a entry in your SDL file for your. Except under your accept, you know, thing that you can put the handshake name and I'll send you the configuration. I use that for my website as well. Yes, Osmosis will be using Handshake HMS to the moon.
**C** (36:34):
Yep.
**A** (36:35):
Cool. Any more questions, Greg?
**B** (36:38):
I mean, for me, I'm just reading off community questions. So what do you got?
**A** (36:42):
Yeah, that's kind of what I was going through. The ion one was definitely one of them. One that seemed come up was. I think it's directed kind of at otu. Will akt. I'm gonna try to read it up. Right. Will we get an AKT boost for liquidity pools with AKT in it? Same or similar to osmosis incentives.
**B** (37:04):
I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, teams can provide incentives in native tokens. We can do AKT incentives, right?
**C** (37:15):
Yeah, so I. I've already. Yeah, so I believe there's already a plan right now where. Where you guys are adding AKT incentives. So currently anyone can add additional incentives into the gauges beyond just the OSMO base. OSMO incentive. So you know, I think you guys are planning on adding some AKT incentives to some of the gauges. I believe the either, either the Sentinel or Persistence team. I have a DM sitting in my telegram right now where it's like, oh, how do we, how do we add like DVPN incentives or something so. Or it might have been persistent so I have to go check. But yeah, I think that's also going to be like a huge thing where like teams can start adding external liquidity incentives.
**B** (37:55):
Yeah, the APYs are what, three commas right now? So APIs are like four digits right now. So I think incentives are pretty much before you can add on additional akt. But yes, to answer the question, additional AKT incentives are coming. So that's gonna be a lot more fun. A lot of fun too.
**A** (38:14):
Cool, cool. So a question I'm actually interested in as well and it's for Sunny. Is there any work on bringing a stablecoin on board?
**C** (38:24):
Yeah, so there's a couple different strategies with this. Not having a Stablecoin is definitely a UX harm for osmosis right now. And so the two things, one is ust right? I want to get a real decentralized stablecoin and I really like the UST design. I'll admit I was actually sick. I never ran a validator on Terra because when I first saw the design two years ago I was very skeptical. But I think over time I've just grown to really like the design a lot. Especially after that crash that happened two or three weeks ago and how Terra was able to maintain its peg. I was very impressed. Interestingly, I think UST is what I think part of what I really like the FAE design and I thought it was like a really well architect or like very unique design. And then when I realized that UST is actually just simpler fae, a simpler and more reflexive fe and I'm like, oh that's pretty interesting. So you know already in touch with the Terra team about this and so you know you saw just like two or three days ago they just tweeted saying that hey, IBC is coming in their next upgrade so that should be really fun when we can get UST coming into this system. The other though. Oh, go ahead.
**B** (39:43):
Oh, that'd be great for us as well because we want to enable us stable currency payments for Akash. I think USD on osmosis will put us there. I'm super excited.
**C** (39:55):
And they also have so many other cool assets as well. Right. They have all the mirror assets and all that kind of stuff. Then the other though as well is you know, also just getting more, you know, fiat collateralized stablecoins. So the E Money team, they have like the euro stablecoin that they have and so they're adding IBC soon as well. But we're actually probably gonna even faster than that. What we'd like to do is just add in a module that allows anyone to mint new tokens. And so if you can just go ahead and mint a token on permissionly mint a token. One second. Okay, sorry, sorry. My headphones just like it is ding. So yeah, the E Money will just be able. Their team will just be able to issue Euros or their digital euro on the chain directly. And we're also, we reach out to the Circle team about how we can get USDC on as well. That you know, these are all things they're like looking into it. I know they're excited to get like USDC into Cosmos and I think, you know, Osmosis might be like the thing that finally like okay, now this is like there's something that the USDC will be being used for. So yeah, so I think there's going to be like a lot of. I think the Stable coins are coming. But yeah, and you know, it's definitely a big focus for getting, getting those soon. I do think, I do think the first one will, the fastest will probably be the E Money one which will be very interesting because Euros will be the first stable coin on Osmosis and I'll be really interesting to unique maybe. I don't know. We'll see how that goes.
**B** (41:30):
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean Cosmos Defi on Interchange Defi. I want to call it, I don't want to call it Cosmos Defi because this is really. When you have USDC and all that come up, I think it's going to take off. Yeah, I mean we are like, it can be an explosion of the possibilities of sovereign diversity, composability over sovereignty. So I'm really excited.
**A** (41:54):
Cool. So another question that came in for Sunny here. How do you envision the relationship between Osmosis and Gravidex as things kind of develop gravity?
**C** (42:10):
I think gravitydex will just move on to Osmosis soon. That's my bet. I think that the batch execution model that they came up with is really cool and I love batch execution systems. Back at Tendermint I actually helped build a Dex with a Batch. It's an Order Book 1, but it had batch execution. We never ended up launching anything with it. But, you know, so I think that I'm, I don't think that a Dex belongs on the Cosmos Hub, to be honest. So when we started Osmosis, we actually were like, hey, let's build this on the Cosmos Hub. And then as we went through we're like, this is going to have a lot of issues because one, we're just not going to be able to upgrade as fast as we need to. Osmosis is, we were told validators like, hey, be ready. We want to do upgrades on a monthly basis. We want to be constantly adding new features. I just don't think the Cosmos Hub can do that. That's not what the Cosmos Hub is designed to do. And then on top of that, you just need to have. I think a good platform needs to be owned and governed by its users. And it's hard to do that with the Atom Token just because it is so widely distributed and it's just distributed with a different purpose than being this AMM platform. And so I'm excited to see how the Gravity Dex launch goes, but I do think eventually we'd like to just see that those, the batch execution model come over to Osmosis as well.
**A** (43:44):
Cool. I like, I made a note that they think Dex should be owned and governed by the users. I just thought that was a good phrase. So write that one down.
**C** (43:51):
We're excited though to use the, you know, once like, you know, the gravity bridge and stuff is up on the Cosmos hub, you know, we'd like to use that and like be able to get all those ETH assets into Osmosis soon as well.
**A** (44:02):
So that, so that actually. Yep. So that was a good question that somebody popped up here a minute ago. Will Osmosis act as something like an IBC wallet to hold assets from multiple chains once the bridges are built? And kind of a follow up was, will we be able to hold ERC20 tokens in the Osmosis assets tab?
**C** (44:22):
Yeah. So once the Gravity bridge is up, then we'll be able to. We might end up have, you know, we're sort of figuring out what, whether we're going to use the Cosmos Hubs gravity bridge or whether Osmosis should just build its own gravity bridge, just. Or like use it for the same reasons like, you know, Somalia also like kind of uses Gravity bridge and then adds all these extensions on top. And I think by having our own gravity bridge, we might be able to just you know, one thing is like you know we were Osmosis as UX right now would not work if it weren't for Kepler. Like the way that Kepler is designed with its like ability to like the suggest chain feature and all this kind of stuff like that enables the UX flow that we, that, that we've built. And so I think by having your own gravity bridge we'll be able to like add, you know that'd be really cool to be able to you know, allow people to store their assets within Osmosis and like you know, use it as a wallet as you say like you know, keep assets here. And I really think it can become like one of the best, you know, dexs like side chain dexes for Ethereum and other chains. And we really want, you know we'd want to be able to connect to any EVM chain, not just main net Ethereum. You know, we'd like our gravity bridge to be able to connect to Polygon and you know, Arbitrum and all the finance smart chain and like all these like EVM based chains. I think a generalized gravity bridge is really good.
**A** (45:53):
Cool, cool. One more for you Sunny, then I'll have one for you Greg next. So for Sunny, does osmosis incur slippage?
**C** (46:03):
Yes. I mean any AMM will have to incur slippage sort of by that's what an AMM is. But we're working on designs for how to improve the slippage. So you know, as mentioned, currently we have Vanilla Balancer but over time I think we're going to have like so you know, I think there's like different ways that people can take AMM design. I think the Uniswap V3 folks, they took the AMM design in more into like an active market making approach. Something very similar to like Uniswap V3 is almost somewhere in between an AMM and an order book. We were actually working on a somewhat different design for how to do like more concentrated liquidity. And then it turns out three weeks ago Curve released their Curve V2 and, and we're like oh wow, that's like so similar to what we were building. And so like really great like validation that like hey, okay, we were like thinking along the right ideas and so you know, I think we really like the curve v2 design where like you concentrate liquidity around the current twop price and then. But you know, I think there's some things that obviously because of launch I got, I haven't gotten a chance to really deep dive into the math behind Kerb V2, but like, you know, looking forward to like checking that out and seeing like, okay, are there improvements that we can make? What? You know, if we really want to focus on the batch execution, what, what, what things might we want to change from Curve v2 and stuff like that. So I think that will help massively reduce the slippage that traders face. You can never have zero slippage though. That's just not what a DEX is.
**B** (47:46):
Yep. It's one of the exchanges. Right. You cannot have zero slippage.
**C** (47:51):
Exactly.
**B** (47:52):
There's always a buying and selling happening.
**C** (47:54):
Yep.
**A** (47:57):
Maybe, maybe it's too soon for this. I know you're just, I mean it's been less than a week since it launched, but people are stoked to kind of see what's going on next. For Osmosis. Do you have some kind of like future plans? Like what is the next thing you kind of want to focus on, like putting into it?
**C** (48:12):
Yeah, I think they're sort of the three main things that we're going to be focusing on right now is you know, AMM design. So that's like, you know, like I mentioned getting the batching or curve V2 style stuff that's like number one and also adding governance to the pool. So like the pool should be able to use governance to update their parameters. So if they want to change the swap fee or if they, you know, let's say you have a pool that's like, you know, 33% this, 33% another asset and 33% another asset. You should be able to use governance to change the ratios. And it can you can actually, the same mechanism that's used for a liquidity bootstrapping pool can also be used to change the allocation of a pool. But you do it slowly so there's not like this like crazy. So that's one, one thing we're doing. The second focus is the front running resistance. Like I mentioned that that's sort of how, where it all started from. And so that's something we're doing, making sure that people can't get front run and I think that will probably be one of the highest when we connect with Ethereum. I want to make sure that there's something that's like, oh wow, this is something that no other dex can provide right now. And I really think that that front running resistance will be that killer feature for a lot of people. And then the third piece is something we're calling superfluid staking. So it's a form of staking derivatives. It's A type of liquid staking, but it's a superfluid where what it means is if you have OSMO and you use it in a pool. So let's say you pair OSMO and AKT and you can get back the LP shares. Currently you bond them and you start earning liquidity rewards. We'd also like it. So you know, you along, you can also currently when you have osmo, you're deciding should I stake or should I LP with it? We want you to actually be able to use your LP shares for staking itself. And so this way you'll be doing both at the same time. And so now that, now you don't have to. And the LP shares will still be, you know, bonded and slashable if the, if you're, if the validator misbehave. So this is a way of like using all the, the OSMO value of liquidity in the pool. So also contribute towards network security as well.
**B** (50:38):
That's only possible for OSMO pools.
**C** (50:41):
Yeah, so it would, it would take the OSMO value of the pool. So let's say it's an OSMO akt pool. There's $50 million, right?
**B** (50:49):
Right.
**C** (50:50):
Yeah. Osmo. $50 million of AKT when you take an LP, Cheryl, use the OSMO part of it.
**B** (50:56):
Right, Right. Not. Yeah, fair enough.
**A** (51:00):
So that's another T shirt. I'm going to put a challenge out there. Super fluid staking. I think that would be really cool. So there's another challenge to the community out there on top of pure osmo. Cool. So I want to ask maybe a couple more questions before we kind of wrap things up here. First one is, this is kind of another similar to like asking about the Gravity decks. How would you Compare uniswap to osmosis?
**C** (51:26):
Yeah, so uniswap, I mean, so I mean uniswap V2, I guess, like you know, it's much simpler than Osmosis Right. Balancer took, basically took the idea of Uniswap V2 and like really made it like multi dimensional. Like okay, all these weights changes at multi assets and that's what we're based off now Uniswap V3, however, it's more. They took the approach of like allowing the LPs to be more active where you can say, hey, I want, I as an lp want to concentrate my liquidity around this, you know, this price band. And that makes sense, makes a lot of sense for like some assets. Like let's say you have a stablecoin to stablecoin pair. It's like, yeah, I mean, why, why are we, why are we providing liquidity at the very far edges of the order book? Let's just let the order book. Why not just provide all the liquidity in this like smaller band from like I don't know, 95 cents to a dollar, 5 cents. Right. But this, the problem is when you have a more volatile asset pair, this actually takes a lot of, basically by concentrating your liquidity, you're getting more fees, but you're also taking on much higher impermanence loss risk because if the price swings past your price band, you end up holding 100% of the less valuable assets. So you're basically magnifying your permanent loss as well. And what this does is it basically makes it so the active people, like the people who are the best market makers are going to be the ones who can provide them, you know, provide liquidity the best and they're just going to, you know, get outsized returns at the expense of the less sophisticated market makers. And I think this kind of goes away from the whole point of amms. I think what made AMMS so exciting was the fact that anyone can just come in and put liquidity in the pool and it's like forget about it basically. Right? It just sits there. And so, and that's what allows you to also do the sort of like LP bonding kind of stuff that we, the liquidity gauges and stuff that we've created. So our approach is more that we want better algorithms so that the pool can do this concentrated liquidity for the users rather than the users having to go figure out how to do, how to best do concentrated liquidity themselves. And yeah, maybe the algorithm that we have might not be better than the, you know, what the best market maker can do by like doing it their own concentrated liquidity. But I think just the amount of liquidity it will be able to bring in because it can bring in all these passive people. Well, I think it can outshine the active market maker approach that V3 is taking.
**A** (54:11):
Cool, cool. All right, so I have two questions.
**B** (54:17):
Just simply put what Sarin just said, if you're a non sophisticated passive investor like me, I'm not investor, I'm an engineer. So I put my LP tokens and forget about it. And the algorithm will try to give me the best outcome versus something like a uniswap. It's a lot more basic. You will not be able to, you'll be exposed to a lot of that, the sophisticated risk. Right. From other sophisticated actors. Did I get that? Right, Sunny.
**A** (54:50):
Cool. Thank you for that, that explanation there, Greg. All right, we have two more quick questions and we're going to wrap things up. First is, would osmosis integrate with a dex aggregator like 1 inch.
**C** (55:04):
Maybe? I mean, I think so. What's nice is now I think some of the integrators have been like aggregators have been, you know, expanding to more chains. I think a lot of them are still pretty EVM focused right now. But you know, I think some have actually started reaching out to us already. So Slingshot, you know, they mentioned to us like hey, you know, be interested in adding in osmosis as well. So we'll see. I think over time we'll have as especially once the Ethereum assets start to flow in. I think that's when the, all these aggregators will be wanting to come in. But at the same time, you know, I really think it'll be really cool to see like some more Cosmos native stuff like happening as well. I think like a new project, new projects that will come and like build aggregators and that you know, are between, that they go between gravity and osmosis, for example. Right. I think one of the things I've been doing, a lot of people are asking like hey, when are we connecting to theorem? And I'm actually a little bit okay with being a little bit slower on that because I want to give time for the cosmos defi to sort of really mature. One of my favorite, Alexander Hamilton is one of my favorite economists and one of the things he did early on in the history of the United States was he put up very high tariffs which is very like anti free market in a way. Right. Because you know that very different than like people, people think that America is built on Adam Smith ideals, but it's not, it's built on Hamiltonian ideals. And like Hamilton was like, all right, no, we, we want these high tariffs because we want to give time for the United States to build up its own industry. Otherwise you're just gonna get like European industries that's gonna come and dominate the US and we, that was the Jeffersonian vision. Right. Jefferson wanted it to be this like very agrarian society. But Hamilton's like, no, no, no, we need to have a little bit of protectionism early on just so that we can kick start our own internal development. And then the tariffs go away once, once America is ready to compete with outside world. And so I think it's really cool. I'd like to see like more, a little bit more development happening in Cosmos first and then we Open the floodgates to that. We want to make sure that there's really something truly great here for when the Ethereum people come. It'll be like, oh, wow, this is something that's actually better than what we have on Ethereum.
**B** (57:24):
I think the protectionism argument is not only in the us. I think if you look at in India or China, actually most economies had a very protectionist regime in the beginning while they're bootstrapping and then the free markets came in. But a very valid regime. Very, very valid point you brought.
**A** (57:42):
Yeah, I love it because only on the unstoppable live stream are you going to get some crypto knowledge and some US history knowledge. So we should do a whole other live stream. Just on your thoughts on Hamilton.
**C** (57:57):
In college, before I dropped out, I was minoring in political economy, so that's kind of how I got into Bitcoin because I was doing like computer science and political economy and that's like, oh, bitcoin, that's great.
**A** (58:10):
Last question. Simple, fun one. This came in from the community. I was just like, this is too good not to ask. So for Sunny and Greg, you can answer too if you'd like. Do you like your eggs over easy, scrambled or sunny side up? Sunny side up.
**B** (58:23):
I like them sunny side up.
**C** (58:25):
I actually do like the sunny side up as well.
**A** (58:26):
There it is. That's it. The jury has spoken. Cool. Well, thank you guys so much for taking that time out of your very busy day. I know both of you are very, very busy to have jump on the live stream. With that, we're going to end today's livestream. I want to thank everyone that's joined all of our. I think we almost made up to 100 plus folks that were on this at any given moment. And for the folks watching at home, Greg and Sunny, how can people get a hold of you online?
**C** (58:54):
Yeah, I'm available on Twitter. You can follow me at sunny A97. Yep. What up? What's just like the title card and then. Yeah, just DM me there. My DMs are open.
**A** (59:07):
Perfect.
**B** (59:08):
And Greg me, I'm at Greg Osuri on Twitter again. I'm very active on Twitter. DMs are open. Feel free to reach out. Telegram, geosuri. And also, fun fact, Sunny does this amazing thread on geopolitical thread that gives you fun facts that you know I love personally. So I highly recommend you follow him.
**C** (59:39):
Yeah, last time I was on the live stream, I think I was quizzed on some of them. That was fun.
**B** (59:43):
Do you want to know. Give me one random. Before we go, give me one random geographical fact.
**C** (59:50):
You have to tell me like a.
**B** (59:51):
Place about El Salvador. I see.
**A** (59:56):
Topical.
**C** (1:00:00):
El Salvador was the one that did the bitcoin, right? Like the bitcoin. Ah, man. I don't know if I know anything about El Salvador to be honest. Paraguay, which borders El Salvador is the only country that has like a different flag. Like the front of the flag is different than the back of the flag. They there's only country that has that actually a two sided flag. That's not El Salvador, that's Paraguay. I don't know why I brought there.
**B** (1:00:29):
A second country to introduce the legislation to make bitcoin a legal tender in Paraguay.
**C** (1:00:36):
Yeah, we're close. One of the things I've definitely noticed was this week I actually failed to post a geography fact twice. And that's like I have not missed a single day in like over two years. But, you know, that's. I guess I think that's been the greatest casualty of launch was my geography fact, like rigorousness.
**A** (1:01:02):
Cool. Well, guys, I do want to thank you both again for joining. As a reminder, everyone watching Osmosis is now live to go and gain access. Go to Osmosis Zone and check it out today. Lastly, if you want to keep this conversation going, you can go find Akash and Osmosis his Twitter and telegram channels. And then again, I want to thank you all for joining. Thank you both Greg and Sonny. This was an awesome event. I learned a lot. I hope people watching learned a lot. But stay tuned for the next one and we'll see you around.
**B** (1:01:31):
Thanks guys. Thanks so much, Sonny. Thanks, Adam.
**A** (1:01:35):
See ya.