Sunny Aggarwal - Osmosis and ATOM 2.0

**A** (0:00): Impressive number for you because I'm pretty sure you did, like, much more impressive live streams. But for. For me, you coming to my live chat, it's like you making me popular, which is weird because it should. It should be other way around, right? It should be like the. The influencers making like, so you doing me service. **B** (0:25): Well, I was just so excited because at Cosmoverse, what happened was we did this, like, you know, there was this, like, award show that was happening, and I didn't like the awards. They were too serious. They were like, oh, Best Developer. I was like, no, no, we need better awards. So I created a second. I. I created the. The forked award show. And one of them, the categories was Best Troll. And I was asking people, who do I put in this? Who are the choices that I should put in the category? I think I put like, Jacob the kid in. I put a couple, and everyone's like, don Kryptonian. You have to put him in. And I'm like, okay, I want to meet who is this person that everyone keeps telling me to put for as a candidate for best Troll? **A** (1:06): That's the dawn. I felt like we have not been very much in touch. I sent you some messages before and I couldn't reach to you, but I feel I'm still small. Cosmos is this weird space in opposition to other ecosystems where developers are actually, like, on the forefront of popularity. Like, everyone knows Sunny, everyone knows Jack Zampoline, but the content makers are like no one in Cosmos. So I hope I can pass you guys at some point. But I didn't win that award, right? Was it Pubmas who won that? **B** (1:49): No, I think Jacob won that one. **A** (1:52): Well, Jacob shouldn't be there. He. He's just crazy, you know, he's not the troll. He's. He's just like this. **B** (2:00): I don't know where's the line between crazy and troll sometimes? You know, I. I had a theory. I always. I had a theory that, you know, I thought that Jay's like, whole, like, mental breakdown back in like 2020. I always thought it's like 20 just like performance art. **A** (2:21): I have the same. I have pretty close theory, like, because I feel Jay is. Is. I mean, like, it. It's unfair to say, like, maybe some people would get offended, but there is so many people having mental issues. So my belief is Jay has mental issues. Like, I don't know what sort of. But I think there might be the part of the performance in this so we could bring up the Kanye. Right? Kanye west and I, you know, like. **B** (3:01): Very similar situation, right? **A** (3:03): Yeah. So, like, I see now, like, people on the. On the Twitter, right, Who. Who dislike Kanye, they actually retweet him and saying, like, oh, this guy is so stupid. But it's like, I feel he's playing you right now. Like, you are. You are getting fooled. **B** (3:21): So I think it's a little bit of both. It's a combination, right? It's like a little bit of. There is some, like, larger issue. There is a little bit of performance art going into it as well. Yeah. **A** (3:31): So I'm. I'm trying to figure out Jay, like, you know, I do think he's very deep into a lot of conspiracies, right? Because I followed him during, like, all the COVID saga. And. And like, some. Some articles are. Because I would consider j. Some, like, extremely clever, but some articles are, like. Would seem like bottom of the. Of the Internet, like, equal theories to, like, chemtrails theory, right? And it's like how someone with this level of curiosity would go, but. But it's my opinion, because someone else could think, hey, this is solid articles. Right? So. **B** (4:15): Yeah, good. **A** (4:18): Like, go on. You wanted to say something? **B** (4:20): Oh, I mean, I was just gonna say, like, you know, when. Back when it was like, you know, going a little. He was going a little crazy. And you're talking about, like, the end of times is coming, and, you know, the great pestilence here is here. The disease is coming. I will say it was about a month before COVID hit. So I don't know, maybe he was on to something. **A** (4:42): Maybe he's reading Chinese forums. **B** (4:44): I think possibly it. I mean, he spent. I know he spends a lot of time on the subreddit, R slash, collapse. And I think just, like, spending too much time on that subreddit, you just kind of go, you know, a little crazy. **A** (4:58): Because I can tell you there was this December 2019, right? And my wife, now wife back then girlfriend, she was like, coming to me, and she was telling me about this new disease spreading in China from the. From the weird Chinese forums that. That she reads. And I'm like, nah, it's just like, weird Hong Kong people, crazy theories. It's like, nothing. And she's like, no, people are dying, right? And she's sending me pictures and stuff. And I'm like, no. Like, you go into this crazy forums, and one month later, like, there is this, like, hey, the Wuhan Wet market is getting shut down, right? So. So it was actually. Actually the true. And then this mass panic started. So I guess maybe he was on these forums, right. **B** (5:50): You know, everything sounds like a conspiracy theory until it's real. Like, you know, who'd have thought this? You know, the US government is like breaking sanctions to fund, to sell weapons to its biggest enemy in order to fund a revolution in a continent across the world. And then it's like, oh yeah, that's what the Iran Contra affair was. That's literally what was happening. We were selling weapons to Iran to fund a, a revolution in like Central America. **A** (6:16): Yeah, I, I didn't look into like, I should probably like go deeper in that. Like sometimes I'm just like not but like u. That's what us doing. Like, you know, how, how, what's the word? This. Destabilizing the enemies or whatever for the own benefits. Right? Like the same like now that's stupid example. Like the, the, the, the country that breaches the most of the human rights, AKA Saudi Arabia is also the strongest ally of us, right? It's like there is so many. Because Saudi is like super important for, for us. **B** (6:55): I mean it's how we keep the dollar hegemony, right. As part of the petrodollar system. **A** (7:02): You know, I, I remember like one of your words. So I watch you and sometimes I, I, some words get stacked in and you said, oh, I like Fiat. I think Fiat is such an amazing invention. Like that's your words like in some interview. And, and I'm like fully agree with that. Like Fiat is amazing. Like Fiat is so great. **B** (7:24): Yeah, I mean I would say like Fiat currency had like one brilliant idea or like idea behind it, right? Which is what is the goal of money is you want some, this asset to remain stable, right? And it has price, right? Money is an asset. It has a, money today is an asset. It has a price, it has multiple types of prices, right? You have your cpi, your inflation, you have your, you know, interest rates as a type of price of money. But there's different types of prices. But the idea is at the end of the day the goal is to keep the price stable. And if it's an asset, what does it do? It's based off of supply and demand, right? And all you need to do is the, the idea behind fiat currency was you want the supply of money to react to changes in demand for money. And this is the problem with Bitcoin and eth and every other like cryptocurrency today that's trying to be money is you can't have a fixed supply system because as the demand for money changes, the price of money is going to Fluctuate wildly. **A** (8:29): Yeah, I, I'd love more about this. So there's people screaming like binance listing osmosis. Hey people, let's get, let, let's step back. Do step back. Because Fiat is way more fascinating like and money subject. Like because my belief is like, you know, we, we always go on Twitter and everyone try to scream what's right. My belief is barely anyone in this world understands money. It's such a feminine that we have the money. Everyone uses that but barely anyone understands how it works, right? Like many people see the increasing supply as the money as something very negative where in fact it's positive because you actually have to have coming supply in order for economic growth. Like maybe I'm wrong here, right? **B** (9:19): So many people need some inflation. Some inflation was necessary. You don't want no zero inflation. But you know, the level that we have today is obviously, you know, it's over inflating, right? **A** (9:32): Well there's two like you, one is inflation, but the other is also supply, right? So supply can grow exponentially. And like I remember like 2020 heat and US expanded the money supply by like 30% and everyone started screaming we have 30% inflation. It wasn't inflation. We had no inflation back then. And you had examples in history where money supply would increase by like three times and the country would have no inflation. And the example was Japan from 80s to 90s. They increased the money supply by 3x and created massive speculation bubble. And they did not suffer inflation. **B** (10:15): Like well, no, no, but the, the inflation is always going to be lagging, right? Because what's going to happen? So we did have inflation, right. Even in 2020 when the money started getting printed. How, how I think of this is like it's kind of like a, a, a what, what was being inflation inflated was all the speculative assets, right? Your stock market and your crypto markets as well, right? And so it's kind of like a pool of money where like okay, all the price levels are like this right now. Like let's say all the price levels are even. Then you start injecting like money into the system and some, the price of something has to go up, right? And what's happening is normal goods or consumer price goods, those are all staying the same. And then your speculative assets, they were inflating in value because the more money was ejected there. But at some point what happens is it's a crash like that, right? Where they have to even out all that money that was going into speculative assets. It that that price all the speculative assets Crashed and inflation started hitting. So the inflation had already started as soon as they started printing the money. It's just this delayed thing where it eventually has to crash like this. **A** (11:28): Well like not sure if you heard of the, of the, of the. Because I think like all of the like it's all theories of like what causes that. Like you know the, the. The. The fractional banking reserve. It's all actually theory. It's. It's very. It's hard to. To prove it. And there is facts that like actually most of the countries don't use even fractional reserve, right? Like the money is like created by like from the freeing air by the private banks which is also misconception. Like people, people always use like you know meme is that it's Fed print money. Like the paper money that is printed is like 3% of the supplies. Like not really like impactful. So there is this theory that you know, like printing money doesn't have to be bad because you can increase the supply, right? You can create the credit private banks and let's say you have idea of the enterprise. So you take the credit, you invest this money. Bring. Bring value back to the community. The problem is what we are doing with this increasing supply. And we did this in 2020. Like most of the countries were absolutely stupid because instead of like creating the supply to bring the innovation were printing supply. And like you can. You would be easily, like you would be able easily answer what happened with this money that was given to people. And these loans that were given like they went into stock market and into crypto market and created speculative bubble. Like nothing went to the economy. So we, we actually had the bubble and this sort of investment. So the loans that are created for speculative investments never push economy forward. They only create bubbles. And that's what we did. And that was the dumbest move probably I did. **B** (13:28): Right, the thing you mentioned about. Exactly. No, that's 100% right. The thing that you mentioned about like you want your supply to be reacting to like the real economy. Do you know the story of how the Federal Reserve was originally designed was what they wanted to do was have a system that they. The Federal Reserve is not supposed to be a government bank. The Federal Reserve was designed that it can print new money collateralized backed by 2% loans to like commercial loans. So it has to be loans to Main street, it can't be loans to the government and it can't be loans to Wall Street. And that was brilliant because what that means is okay, as the demand for loans of Commercial loans increases. That means the demand for money is increasing. So that allows us to print to, to make more money backed by that demand. Right. It's just like it's a supply reactive system and like this, this is how the Fed was designed and then they changed their thing. Why? When was the Fed created? What happened like a year after the Federal Reserve was created. The US entered World War I and the US was like actually that rule that we made about not letting the Fed loan to like take government loans. We are going to, you know, we have a war to win here. So we changed our mind. We're going to change that rule and like you know, and then by the end of the war the Federal Reserve system was so filled with government bonds that it like, it's like okay, this is where the government bank now. But then they have all these like legacy systems that like the rules say they're not allowed to buy from the government. So that's why you have these like banks that have to act as intermediaries between the Fed and the Treasury. But like in general, like yeah, like my, my whole view is that the ideas behind fiat were good, but they are so left up to like the discretion of central bankers and governments to like be like subject to political whims that that's what ruins the system. What we need is algorithmic fiat currency things fiat like fiat currency who's like reactive model is like set in smart contracts owned by governance, not by like politicians and central bankers. Right, that's so fiat is good, discretionary fiat is bad. **A** (15:56): Yeah, that's but such a difficult point you know, because like like you sometimes like the, these governments despite being bad, sometimes they moves pull us out of the depression. Right. So like in the Great Depression in 1930s you still had the, the gold backed right. Fiat and then we had like three years depression so they left it and they printed supply like as the way and, and we were able to leave that depression. Right. So would it be possible with this kind of algorithm to prevent such situation and not do the downward spiral of you know, increasing demand for fiat which would actually make the deflationary fiat. **B** (16:52): I think the goal is that the government like a well designed algorithm should be able to account for these things. Right. And like you know the goal is not you, the goal of a well designed system is not to be overly rigid. Right? Like overly rigid. Overly rigid systems break. That's what rigid rigidity is about. What you want to do is you want to bound the flexibility of things. You don't want them to like go on wild swings right where you want, like, hey, we want like this tighter band and that's where we want things to fluctuate in and it gives you a little bit of flexibility and leeway to be react to things. So yeah, it's all about, you know, there's, it's always. What's the term in, in monetary theory? It's about like discipline versus elasticity. And you don't want one of like all, all elasticity, which is what we have today, or you don't want all discipline, which is like bitcoin hard money thing, which doesn't work either. It's always a balancing game of you need a little bit of both. **A** (17:56): This was what I was like, you know, because I listened to you speak of Fiat. And to be honest, like, I think I like respect you one of the most in Cosmos ecosystem because I do feel like you are trying to understand the money like similarly as I'm trying. So I go make videos and I'm saying, hey, bitcoin is shit. It's. It's horrible. It doesn't have the properties. In fact, if we would ever move to the bitcoin standard and many people hate me for this, there would be so many people going hungry on the streets, like, you cannot do this. Like, that would be horrible. But then I see Sunny tweets, right? And Sunny is Bitcoin is the money of Cosmos. What? What? So can, can you, can you maybe tell, tell me what's your thoughts about what if me money is too scarce and too restrictive to the people, like what, what you think happens and what you mean by saying the bitcoin is money on Cosmos. **B** (19:00): Yeah. So, you know, the problem is this term money is just way overloaded as this, like, like as a concept, right? And so when I say bitcoin is the money of Cosmos, I actually don't think there's any money. I don't think, you know, the end goal here is the concept of money itself changes. Why we decided to build. It was our view is that at the end, at the end goal of all of this is that. Wait, what is money today? Okay, let's break this down. You know, you have three functions, three primary functions, right? You have the store value, medium of exchange, unit of account. Let's talk about medium exchange first, right? Today it's the, it's the asset that you use for payments. The goal is, I want a world where you can use any asset you want as a medium of exchange and a merchant can receive any asset they want as a Medium of exchange. So let's say, you know, and we do this a little bit today with Visa, right? So imagine I go to Europe and I swipe my credit card, I'm paying in dollars, but the merchant is receiving in euros and that's kind of all like abstracted away from us. Well, what I want is that to be possible for all assets, right? Like I should be able to choose whatever portfolio of assets I want and then people can, the merchant chooses whatever portfolio and then we just, we just pay and it just ends up in either of our portfolios. So there's no one money asset anymore. All assets can be used as a medium of exchange. Then you have questions about, okay, how do units of account work, how to store value work? I can go into that if you'd like. But like, so this, this notion of like, okay, so where does Bitcoin come into this, right? Bitcoin is there's no one thing that's a store of value anymore either, right? What, what people use as a store of value is you want some basket of things, right? You have a portfolio that you use. And I think that bitcoin, the goal, it has one goal which is to replace gold, right? So gold is a very special asset in today's financial system. Which is, what it is is it's the uncorrelated asset. It's the, it's, it's a game, it's a shelling point game, right? So what happens is, okay, so okay, I had a friend who was interning at Jane street back in like 2016 and was interesting was the night of the 2016 US election, they had like, they were, had a poker game going on but they had like two things up on the screen on their tv which was one was prediction markets. So predict it on the trump, on the, on the victory. The other was the US Peso exchange rate market. And what happened was all of Wall street used the US Peso exchange rate market as a shelling point of this is the betting market game that we're going to use to bet on a trump victory. And so it's, it's interesting. It's just like, hey, everyone is, everyone has agreed, hey, this is, this market is what we're going to use as a betting game. And it kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because everyone's using that same market. Gold is the same thing. Gold is this like market that we've all agreed as a shelling point that when everything else goes to shit, we're all going to buy gold. There's no reason that gold is like special in this way other than it just become this shelling point. I think the goal of bitcoin is to replace gold in that function. And I think anyone who's trying to build a hard money system, they're not building hard money. What they're trying to build is build the new version of gold. And I think that bitcoin is the only one that has actually or is making the, the most progress towards that goal. And I want to like it has the right mimetic value and like actual traction behind in this goal. And I think that's why I want to throw my, instead of like trying to compete with bitcoin on this, I want to help support bitcoin in that goal. But that doesn't mean it's going to be the money. It's going to be one piece of people's portfolio that is their store of value. **A** (23:04): Yeah, that, that is really good point. Like I do think I align with this and I think crypto as the whole as the space could really be money because this system like all the basket of the assets is like very flexible. So it's expanding in the moments of high demand and shrinking opposite. So like if I go to the like spot, I can easily pay it with my app. But there is the basket of thousand assets, right? If, if there is the need, there is problem like with the bitcoin. I don't know if the bitcoin is really the gold. Like not sure if you agree with that, but what is bitcoin like it's not speculative. Sorry. Like it's speculative asset that is relying on the price performance of other speculative assets. It's actually moving exactly the same way. It doesn't move with gold, it move with basket of other speculative asset. And this is why like bitcoin is not money. Right? It's that simple. **B** (24:06): You're right. And I think bitcoin is at this, a little bit of this like weird position where you know, it arguably it's not doing very well right now in its, in its attempts to replace gold as that inversely correlated asset. Because you know, people didn't buy bitcoin when the market started crashing. People started selling bitcoin. You're right. It, it, it's more correlated to the speculative asset side than the other side. And I think that this is a risk factor for, for, for bitcoin in its attempts. It seems that like. But I'll say that it's out of all the ass, all the other crypto assets, it is the Closest to, you know, being at least memetically, narratively considered closer to gold. So, yeah, you know, I would say bitcoin is fighting. It's still the David fighting this Goliath that is gold. Gold, right. And like, and, and yeah, it's not. We'll see how the market evolves to bitcoin. And I guess my claim here is why I call myself a bitcoin maxi in this, in this perspective is instead of trying to like, you know, back these other horses of like, eth and all these other things, I'm trying to fight gold and replace gold. Right? It's like, no, I'm just going to like, okay, bitcoin has. Out of all of these things that no one is winning against gold, bitcoin is the only one that actually seems to have somewhat of a fighting shot, even though maybe it's losing right now. Okay, I'm going to put my, you know, I'm going to try to back that and like, do whatever we can to help push that narrative. **A** (25:43): Yeah, well, I think it could have some place together with gold. Right? And like, I was also thinking, does people still want gold? Because we had this weird trend in, like, past 15 years that people, like, were aligning more like, with the store of value of like, utility assets. Like, and this was the age where like, Amazon and Apple become very popular. **B** (26:09): Oh, always, right? Utility assets are always going to be better than gold. The point of gold is just, like I said, it's just a shot selling point on the inverse game, right? It's like if you, you hold it just as a hedge, nothing else, right? It doesn't have utility. Gold doesn't have utility. Right. And so, but it has a high enough market cap to act. It's like, okay, so imagine you want a short, like, okay, you have a certain amount of like, longing ability on spot markets. We're talking about crypto here, right? You have a certain amount of longing ability. But the purpose of perp markets is to have a place where people can short. And you need high enough liquidity in that market so that the people can hedge the long positions on spot markets with short positions on perp markets. Right? And that's why the liquidity and volumes on perp markets are so high. It's the same with, with the gold. The market cap of gold has to be high enough to provide a short position on the world that like positive assets, Right? You know, utility assets can have. So you can hedge utility assets with gold. And I think that's the. When, when, when, when the Real economy decreases, utility assets decrease in value. Gold is supposed to go up in. In those cases. So yeah, every fun. It's always a balancing function there. **A** (27:29): I do really like that you mentioned shorting because, like, people don't realize the shorting is very important for efficient markets. Like in China, the shorting is illegal and it's very unefficient market. You know, it's like, really like you. You can see that, like Chinese market, like, not very. And that's why I think, like, US Markets are like, way more efficient. Like, I want to, like, because as we are like, with the store of value, like, do you think the, The. The recent change of like Ethereum tokenomics, let's say with the move to proof of stake, was like. Because I believe that Ethereum shoot themselves in the, in the foot, like with, with trying to become this ultrasound money, which was absolutely. I hated this term. Like, because money doesn't have to be sound. That's the point. Like, and stop this rhetoric because who will come to Ethereum if it's like, on the top you have like, Ethereum aristocrats. And the only point of Ethereum is like, stake it for the, for the apron. Don't use it. Don't. Just don't. Like, you know, like, I feel it's like weird paradox they created. Maybe I'm wrong here. **B** (28:44): Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, yeah, this whole term of sound money is like, you know, it's always this, like, meme that the bitcoiners created. And I think. I don't know why the Ethereum, like, fell for the meme. And like, yeah, I mean, eth. Trying to lit, like, connect itself to also compete in the same game that bitcoin is in this, like, sound money. It's like, okay, that's cool. Good luck. I don't think you're like, I think inherently Ethereum is a little bit too progressive to try to be digital gold. Right. I think you need to be a little, A little bit conservative to be like a digital gold kind of thing. And I don't think that. And you know, if, If Ethereum wants to be like, the money actually being used, like, I don't know if it's monetary policy is like, gonna be sufficient enough. So, I mean, we'll see how it ends up playing out. To be honest, I mean, I don't. I think that they kind of didn't have any other use case for what to do with Ethereum right now, so that's kind of what they decided to go with. **A** (29:48): Yeah, look, there's like everyone is shouting like. So I think part of it is. **B** (29:54): Like Ethereum didn't know what it wants to be when it grows up. It had too many narratives. And it's like we're trying to be the money, but we're also gonna be this capture system with. We're gonna like. It had too many things. It has too many things going for it. And some of these things are intentioned with each other. Like you and that, like, it's hard to. That's why I like. That's one of the reasons I like bitcoin, where it's not trying to do too many things. It's like, okay, we're gonna pick one thing and try our best to do that one thing. It's an app. Bitcoin's an app. Chain. **A** (30:20): Yeah, like that, that also can be the, the, the bad thing because, like, we cannot really, like, people like, underestimate how much like, we cannot really predict the future. And there is like always this paradox, like, so I say like the paradox with like layer ones, right? They will. Well, we will always be getting like, faster, cheaper, more scalable layer ones that people will be like, moving, moving next to. And we cannot like, really solve that paradox. And that could like, be the. And that's also like paradox for bitcoin that we will be like, just getting this better stuff. And are we going to stick to bitcoin here, which has this great role, but it might simply at some point fade away naturally. **B** (31:10): One of my friends has this good analogy where blockchain communities are kind of like religions anyways. He often has this analogy where bitcoin is Catholicism and then everything else is, you know, Reformation, right? And it's like, okay, what happens is like, yes, once the Reformation happens, then you, you have all the Protestant systems, but then they keep forking like crazy, right? And there's this talent and majority of Christians are not Catholic, but Catholicism is still the largest out of everything because everything else keeps forking. And then all the conservatives managed to like, all the conservatism manages to not keep forking. And so there is this like, tail end. And I think that like bitcoin and Catholicism take this like very one position tail end. **A** (32:02): Well, that makes me more bullish on bitcoin. What you just said about not, not because of the religion. I come from Catholic background, not that religious. But like, I was like, like when people ask me what religion you are, like, I'm not saying I, I am non religious, but I always say I come from Catholic background because it's more like the cultural background is more important of like the beliefs that you have anyway. Like my. I just throw this so. But yeah that like excellent, excellent point. Look like people really scream in there for, for the boring stuff. They, they keep mentioning some OSMO token. I'm not really sure what's that but. And, and people think maybe I, I scheduled the talk like because like around, like around one hour ago, I think the news appeared that Osmosis is listed on Binance. Maybe that's why you were late. **B** (32:59): I was just busy playing Avalon, which is a board game. **A** (33:03): Yeah. So you are just ghosting me. Like not. But yeah. Like did you. Did you know about this or they just, they just decided to do about themselves that. Were they in touch with you? **B** (33:18): They were in touch with us for technical integration stuff. Like I mean they wanted to. Yeah. I mean this is what number of exchanges always approach us and we always tell them hey, we don't get involved with listings. We don't pay. We definitely will never pay for a listing. And we are definitely not like, I don't know. We're not. We. We don't care what, whatever you do. We actually prefer you don't. But like we, we provide technical support. Like hey, this is how you run nodes. This is. Here's the links to our docs and stuff. So I did know it was coming because like, you know, why is. Why are a bunch of Binance people suddenly messaging me asking for docs? But yeah. **A** (34:04): Did you leverage trade OSMO long hundred X on the News? **B** (34:10): I did not. 1. There's no way of leverage trading Osmo. **A** (34:13): Yeah. **B** (34:13): Also just don't day trade. **A** (34:15): Yeah. **B** (34:16): Like I don't think I've, I don't think I've traded Osmo in like months. I'm just huddling. **A** (34:23): Yeah. I, it's just not for me. Like I, I don't know. The trading is such a weird, weird game that it's also like, like throwing darts. **B** (34:34): Yeah. I learned that I was a bad trader so I'm like I'm just gonna go build the decks instead of trying to trade. **A** (34:41): Well, you quite like quite good at this. But this is, this is awesome because even recently you said like do you want to participate in Cosmos? Go on Kraken. Buy atoms, move atoms to Osmosis. So now it's like, hey, withdraw atoms from Binance and you are there. **B** (34:58): Like that's it help the UX process. I think the UX onboarding has been really painful for like, like getting onto Osmosis. Like this whole Idea of like having to go buy atoms to, to like go do this and it's like you know, getting, I think being able to just directly onboard onto Osmosis directly will just make it so much easier. What our goal is, we want to keep fighting to make sure that Osmosis is the primary market for Osmo and I think having a year of liquidity and volume and everything built up on the actual decks was important. So you know, I'm happy that like, you know, we still, you know, haven't gone on centralized exchanges for like over a year. And I, I, I'm hoping that Binance and whatever centralized exchanges they don't like, I, I still hope that Osmosis will always remain the primary venue. These will remain like secondary markets. **A** (35:55): It was like such a weird like thing like Osmosis was just so successful, you know, essentially like Osmosis launched. **B** (36:06): In. **A** (36:06): The bear market like because I think we like we had the peak in the like spring 2021. So osmosis actually launched after that and the fact that it was able to build such a deep liquidity, you know, like and then I got wrecked by the, by the collapse of, of Luna and still survive and now liquidity is growing like it shows the resilience. And now I feel like with this listing on the exchange, maybe it's time that Osmosis really become the hub. Right? You know, like it's just get more listings and it removes the middleman of, of, of Atom. Like Atom is the, is the middleman and I do like Atom because it was like such a big liquidity. But I'm pretty sure all Atom Maxis are upset under this listing now. They will be like, oops, what's the favorite centralized exchange of Sunny? **B** (37:03): My favorite centralized exchange probably Coinbase I think just, I mean it's the one that I use the most and it's, I mean I'm an American so it's what I kind of have to use because everyone else has blocked me. But like it is, I really like Coinbase so I think their UX is like very seamless and like easy to use for new on new, new people to onboard onto. I also, you know, like I think crypto.com is also like, I really like their app. I think it's very simple to use and I think they've done a good job at like onboarding a lot of new people. Like so many people I know like, like they just start, they start using crypto because of the credit card or like my uncle on Christmas, he's Like, oh, I use crypto.com because they sponsored the UFC. And I'm like, oh, I guess, I guess that kind of stuff works, you know, like. Yeah. And so I, I always, I always liked crypto.com's like ability to like act very differently than everyone else. Like, I think all the other exchanges are like kind of all doing the same thing, right? They're all just copying each other. Well, it's like very unique, innovative, innovative approaches to things. So I always really liked them for that reason. And you know, obviously I'm. I also just like the fact that they've always just been like really good, like public goods contributors. Like they've been. You know, there's a lot of centralized exchanges that use like Cosmos software, right. And like, you know, Binance obviously is one of them and others as well. Right. But like they don't like contribute back as much. Like, they don't upstream and stuff. Crypto.com they were like, they like look, the ethermint code base, like the one that that's like used in EVMOS and stuff. I would say it was actually like everyone thinks it's the EVMOS team that like built, built that conquer, right? I would say it's actually really like 50, 50 between the EVMOS team and the crypto.org team to build Kronos. So like they like built that stack that now like so many Cosmos chains are using, right? They, they were early adopters of IBC. When Osmosis launched, only 8 chains support supported IBC and crypto.org chain was one of them. And so I always. And like even with their internally they use like IBC solo machines in order to like. I don't know, I just really like that they've always been like. And even. And they don't hide it either. If you go on Kronos's website, it's like the tagline is an evm, the first EVM built on Cosmos. And so I don't know, I've always found them to be like really awesome community participants and members. **A** (39:39): That's really cool because for example, I didn't know that, you know, I would assume that the EVMOS like was the first EVM here like even. But it seems not. I think also crypto.com is here where I live in Hong Kong, right? They are. This is like really sad. There was such a brain drain in Hong Kong of this. Like everything used to be registered here and now everything is leaving. I think crypto.com is still here and majority of the team is, is maybe Here but I never use them actually. But like I, I guess I like what they're doing is Coinbase allowing you to. To trade with small fee. Like can you do banker on. On. On Coinbase? Like how you do it? **B** (40:25): Yeah, I mean for me as I'm able to convert fiat from a bank into USD for. **A** (40:36): Yeah, okay. Yeah. I, I use Kraken. I really like to use Kraken for. They. They allowed me to. To open account on the passport with not residency with my citizenship. **B** (40:48): So. **A** (40:48): So like that's what's like that's why I chose them. Maybe I shouldn't say that but yeah like I the bank transfers because like I don't like these exchanges. Like I mean everyone maybe allow you for the bank transfers but with some restrictions because many people use the card. It's like dumbest thing ever. Like you pay 3% fee. What. What the hell are you doing with your life? Right? Like what's your. So I guess you want the Coinbase to list Osmosis. Like I think it will happen once the Binance did this. It's. It's just like everyone's gonna. It's too important. Especially that Atom is trending right? So like how we on board the Atom. Let's. Let's connect to the major decks that there will be the fees because like and it might even surpass in volume the. The Atom. I. You know like. Sorry, wanted to say something. God damn. Let's, let's go with like we might go back to Osmosis but like Atom 2.0 like everyone chatting about this and also like you know, I made the video about contributors, you know, like because people like to say who contributes the most and I think it might be that like a lot of people from Osmosis team are contributors to the Cosmos stack. Isn't it the. The Cosmos SDK and I made the video and I said like hey, like J1 is not even contributing to. To Cosmos actually. And some people like say hey that's not true. Like that's the. So I want to, I want to know your opinions. Like maybe shout out the names. Who, who actually contributes the most to Cosmos. **B** (42:37): I mean if you guys want the real answer is like names you guys haven't heard of, right? Like, you know, you probably want me to say like oh, Zaki or Jay or honestly if you go look at who it's really like, you know, there's a lot of folks at the interchange GmbH and at informal and Osmosis Labs and like all these companies who are like really the ones who are the biggest contributor. You know, some people are just good at like talking in front of a. On a zoom chat. But like, you know, the real contributors are sort of like back there. And you know, I mean, there's one of the things that's really cool with, you know, that there is no one company that's the, that's the main contributor. Right. It really is split between like, you know, interchange GmbH, informal, strange love, Osmosis Labs Region. So region is one that, you know, I hope people know how much they've contributed to the causal system. Okay. And yeah, you know, occlusion. There's a lot of sort of contributors to the SDK. It really is this sort of mesh development system. **A** (43:43): I want to know, like, it's in the basic words, right? Like, sorry for mentioning J so often because it's, it's such a mystery, right? Because this is the guy who came and like create this, you know, created Cosmos, I mean, with few other people, obviously, but I think the base idea came from him. So like, if you could, is Jay like really amazing developer you would you say? Or it's like overstated, like, because no one knows, like, how good is Jay? Like, is. Is he great developer? Is there other people who you actually appreciate more? **B** (44:24): I would say that, like, I think Jay is a visionary, has some crazy brilliant ideas. Sometimes they're hard to understand and digest. Like, but like Tendermint Brilliant. Tendermint Consensus brilliant idea. IBC brilliant idea. I think sometimes when you go down into the weeds, he like, it doesn't always, like, it's not always the best ideas. Like you know, sometimes. And he's very stubborn and difficult to work with in a lot of ways. Like this was the whole Amino versus Proto Buff thing, which is like, it's about how we encode stuff in the SDK. And like there was benefits of Amino, undoubtedly, but there was also drawbacks and like his unwillingness to like discuss them with people and like it and like, yeah, that it caused it made it very difficult to work with him. And so. And oftentimes it'll be. It's a little bit unreliable where like he would say he would go off and build something and he'd be like, oh, I'll have it done in like a week or two weeks. And then no one hears from him for like a month and a half and we're like, yeah, okay, we're just going to start doing it the other way because I don't. No one's able to contact Jay. Where is he? And then he comes back and he gets mad because he's like, wait, guys. Oh, I said I was gonna do it this way. And he's like, yeah, but we haven't heard from you in two months. So that's kind of like. That was like a big, big sort of challenge. I think there are certain things that like, you know, like everyone. I think some of his ideas are really good. Some of them are not so great and you know, there's things I, I definitely disagree with it. So. Yeah. **A** (46:09): Do you mind like Atom 2.0? Like I'm, I'm still so like it's such a difficult concept to. I, I mean like everyone like trying to make it so complicated. I, I haven't even heard to like full discussion with, with the crypto sito. But like I, I went there and I liked your point because you're like, whatever. It doesn't, I feel like for you it's like it doesn't really matter, you know. But like, could you, could you lay down like what's the. Have any problem with Atom 2.0? **B** (46:45): Not really. Like, I mean I can go into the details. I think high level, generally very supportive of the direction. Right. Like, I think it makes sense. I think on some of the details, I think like the interchange Allocator stuff, it's a little bit unclear how that's gonna work out or compete with like the internal MEV systems on like different chains. Right. Like Skip for example is building internal MEV capture into osmosis. And so it's like why would they use the hubs Allocator or like and I think, I think there's like questions around the Allocator but you know, those are. The allocators are so under specified right now. It's very high level idea. I think Tarun had a good. Tarun Chitra, he had a tweet about like the, he had a little thread about this where he's like, yeah, the Allocator is a nice idea but like it doesn't have any of the details of like how it would actually work. And I think that's kind of valid when it comes to the. Sorry, sorry, I meant to say the scheduler, not the Allocator, the stuff the Allocator is. I definitely think that's the right, right thing directionally. Like the hub should be using. It's. It doesn't have enough of a community pool and it should be using that community pool to incentivize the usage of Atom and other things and even just put Atom on the balance sheet. Of other chains, right? Like so we do this with osmo. This is why we, this is one of the reasons why we do loan swaps, right? Or we do token swaps from the community pool is because okay look, we have this like partnership with like you know, this thing that we do with Axelar, right? And it's like okay, get them some awesome, let's get off, give them OSMO so they are incentive aligned with Osmosis. You know, I think we should do something similar with Mars as well, right? Like okay, let's get OSMO into the community pool of Mars and get Mars into the community pool of Osmosis so that these communities are incentive aligned with each other. And I think that the Cosmos hub has failed to incentive align the rest of the cosmos community with Adam. Like other. Everyone's like oh, everyone keeps airdropping to Adam. It's like yeah, that's like a one way thing. Like you know the like other communities give things for Adam and there's like no reciprocity. And like I think like the atom needs like the Cosmos hub needs to learn how to like, you know, I gave this example of like I had this tweet where I was like, you know, this guy in the corner of the party being like, they don't know I'm the hub, right? Because you can't just go around telling people you're the hub. You don't want to be the guy in the party who's like in the corner like oh, I'm the hub, right? No, you want to be the life of the party. You want to have a lot of friends, you want everyone being around you. That's the strategy that Osmosis takes by doing building relationships with other chains. And I think that's like. And I think the allocator system of the causes hub, that's the goal is not really to be an investment dow. I actually don't think it's going to be good at investment dow. The best investors are not gonna be like, you know, they're going to use their own capital, right? They're not going to use the hubs capital, right. What it is is it's a way of give a lot using it to align incentives. And we tried to propose the Cosmos hub do this early on in like right when Osmosis launched. We actually were. The original plan was to use Adam as the base pair of all the pools in Osmosis. But then we're like oh wait, we could also just do this with OSMO as well. Why do we have to use Adam as the base pair. And then we're like okay, well let's, let's give it up to the hub for them to decide. Like okay, let's see if they have any reciprocity. Like okay, you know, why don't we just use a little bit of tokens from the Cosmos Hub community pool to fund, you know, put incentives on making on atom based pools on osmosis and that will, that, that would have helped make Atom the base pool asset of osmosis. But the Cosmos have rejected that proposal. And like we're like okay, I mean clearly the Cosmos Hub has no interest in like seeing osmosis succeed. So we're just going to use OSMO as the base pair for everything. And so that's kind of like what I mean where like the, the hub lacked. It needs a treasury to be. And one of the big reasons why people said the hub shouldn't do this is because we were asking for a small amount of money in my opinion, which is like around a million dollars, which is like yeah, you know that's high but it's like in the scale of these, this market cap of these chains that's pretty small. But people's point was like well that's like 20% of the cosmos Hub community pool pool. And it's like okay, the problem is your community pool is not big enough in that case. And I think that this is gonna help fix that. **A** (51:28): But, but you know, my, my problem is like that everyone like gets so fixed up on this like community pool. Also I want to say like this decline from the, from the hub was probably the best for, for osmosis ever. Like because the, if Cosmos would agree the cosmos would have way deeper liquidity would be great benefit. But because of that kind of osmosis happened to be the, the hub for the exchange. Let's, let's go this way. But like I, I don't see the problem of people like keeps like talking about dilution and stuff. Like why don't we just like do now the puzzle and like let's mint 5 million atoms. Like that's it. Like let's mint it. Like let's mint it and like whenever. **B** (52:15): We need it make any sense. Because the like what it's the equivalent of of like print. If you have a company, right you print you can create called unallocated shares, right? **A** (52:28): Yeah. **B** (52:28): And if you have unallocated shares, they're not in circulation. They don't like change the market. They don't like affect the market. Right. It's like, so normally what companies will do is they'll create like employee options pools or equity pools, right? So what you do is you print like this much shares so that you can allocate to employees as they join. And it's like the printing of those shares isn't dilution because it's not actually liquid and in the market it's unallocated shares. **A** (52:55): That was exactly point I was, I was making. So I went to like this, this Atom 2.0 discussion and people scream the illusion and I'm saying like, look, the companies continuously pre print the shares. This is how the funding works and this is how it always works. This is not dilution. We're just gonna print it and it's gonna incentivize investments. And as long as investments are not non speculative investments but beneficial for the hub, that, that's how it works. You can also do the buybacks if, if there is like any benefits. What companies do like, you know, I'm not sure if like Apple shares are declining because they do the buybacks, but they will issue new shares when there is need of, of investments. And, and you are flexible with that. So I don't see the point. Like, but it's like such a small issue. Like we could literally like just, okay, we're just gonna mint like we're just gonna do upgrade and mean 5 million $. Sorry 5 million atoms and next year if we need, we're gonna do 10 million and it's like it's not dilution and no one would even care. Like why the main discussion is around this point. Like I don't get that. **B** (54:01): Yeah, I mean what you need to do is like what the, what the pre minting does is it sets a cap and then you, what you do is you give it to us. Okay, so, okay, so how does, okay, so let's look at, let's look at a company, right? What happened is like the board and shareholders have to agree that like, hey, we're gonna mint this percentage of new equity, let's say 5% to be given out to, you know, new employees over the next one year. Right. And but then what they do is they entrust a certain set of stakeholders, usually the executives of a company, to decide how to allocate those shares to maximize value for the company. Right. And it's like, so the point of the minting is that like, hey, let's pre mint this much so we don't have to go through governance every time we want to allocate. You know, a company shouldn't have to go to the board every time they want to hire a new employee just to allocate them equity. Right. So it's like, no. So that, that's why you do the pre minting. But it's not an idea is you have to trust the executives to make decisions that fit the company. Now I think what's missing in the Adam 2.0 proposal is a proper governance model of how. Who's going to make these decisions, of how these, how these treasury is spent. And you know, I feel that was just left way too vague. And I think, I think Jay's whole point was that like hey, we. One of his points is that like hey, we need more details on the governance of this, of this treasury, this unallocated capital before we decide to mint that unallocated capital. **A** (55:40): Yeah, like this is my main, main issue. I want to ask you about this. And I feel this is also issue with osmosis and other chains. So those chains function, let's say as very similar to democracies. Okay. I think it was Plato. It's in Wikipedia. The Plato had issue of democracy. And I feel it's kind of like has the point and I feel osmosis suffered from it. When there is like, and there is already discussions in the, in the atom of creation, the dao that will manage that. My belief is that it doesn't do anything like the subdaos do not ever improve the network. If there would be no subdaos or we have subdaos, there is no difference. With only difference that subdaos create additional cost because the people are somehow incentivized to do something. **B** (56:41): So I disagree that the goal of a subdao is that like I think like for example, the osmosis grant program is. I think that like, I think that is very effective. And the reason is that the goal of something, for example, the goal of something like the grants program is that its job is to like sort of do a little bit of negotiation with the grant recipients. Because you know what happens is grant recipients come in and say, hey, we need $5 million to build our thing. And it's like, no, you don't. You need maybe $500,000, not 5 million. And it's this negotiation that they're doing with grant recipients. Right? But the problem is negotiation can't happen in public because otherwise there's asymmetric information. We saw this happen with sushi, right? Sushi tried to do like negotiation with their VCs. Like so the sushi dao tried to do a Fund a raise, but they did it on their forum. And this asymmetric information here, the VCS get to see everything the DAO is thinking and considering and their strategy and negotiation while the DOW doesn't get to see what the DCs are doing. Right? And that's like you can't negotiate when one side has public information as fully transparent information. Right. And so the purpose of like something like the Osmosis grants program is the Osmosis DAO has basically elected a smaller set of people, in this case Reverie, as well as a set of like multi SIG members to negotiate on behalf of the dao. And I think that's like necessary if you want the DAO to be able to make like any sort of business decisions. **A** (58:28): I always see the problem of this, you know, because it's like I will expand on the, on the previous when you have like the community chains and like there are people who don't pay attention to this. But you might notice, hey, like if I get engaged, if I will write proposals, if I will bring discussions and, and if I'm good at marketing myself, I can really like suck out that tit of prosperity, you know, like, it's like I, I see people really coming. They don't bring down value, but they are very good at presentation and they are good at extracting the value which is often seen positive because they said hey, they do something. But it's like this kind of like if you have like SABDAO is often like biased. It doesn't have like the equal competition. And someone was sending me like because I tell you, I never was like really seeing the, the what Moses lab for example is doing. But there was sometimes discussion, hey, this funding is actually huge and there is not even competition to what they do. They request the amount, they get the amount. What about if you can do the things at the third of the costs and this competition doesn't exist. And I think this is problem and this is huge in efficiency of this community driven chains. Like this is, this is big problem. Many people say hey this is positive. But it's like no, if you have like very strong structure and if you have the guy who rules that he's like we gonna issue the competition and, and the best offer is gonna get that. That. **B** (1:00:11): Yeah, no, yeah. You know, I mean these are always. I, I agree. I think that maybe there should be more competition. Maybe we should have multiple entities giving like grants or we should be doing like. I agree. Competition important part of the problem with this whole like oh you know, people will be like oh, I know someone who can do this three times cheaper. But then you look at the quality of the stuff these people create and it's like oh, ah, that's kind of shitty quality. You know, it's like it's almost just like it's this hard thing like to like you can't only look at cost, you do have to look at like the quality of the work being outputted and stuff. So there's, there's always like trade offs here. **A** (1:00:47): Yeah, that. Well the quality is also like. But it's you know like I, I see it with Atom like 2.0 there's already people discussing about who will be on the like managing subdao and it's like it just annoys me. Like why would you already. Because for me it would be like hey, put there like someone like you don't have to like people don't realize you don't have to put their people from the community. Like you can put the like, you can employ the people with the like best qualification, pay them salary and make sure they are not, not even from the, from the community to make sure they're like unbiased. Because I feel this is like, this is sort of the democracy that brings you. Hey, if I get engaged I can really get a lot of benefits. So it's like I'm being bad actor for trying to extract the value for like pretending of providing of the value. **B** (1:01:44): No, I mean I agree. You know, yeah, it's building companies is hard. Building companies and fully transparent like parent public systems is even harder. Right. And it's like, you know, and so okay, going back to the whole Atom 2.0 stuff, right? Like I think that's an interesting question where that's kind of, that's one of Jay's points is like hey, let's just like not even try. Like why are we trying to make Adam into this like investment dao sort of thing and make thing. And I think, like I said, I think that's part of the mistake where it's like I don't think that's what it's about. I don't think the part, I don't think purpose of Adam 2 is to actually be good at being investing. Right. I think that the goal is to make Atom be more money like and be more popular use as a store value asset within the cosmos ecosystem. So that's. That. That's like my take. I. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about the whole photon thing. I mean I think It's a little bit. **A** (1:02:40): Yeah. They didn't even look into this. But the point about. Because I always viewed Atom as money and you know, like also there's big group of people shouting, hey, Atom has bad tokenomics. It doesn't occur the value. I mean, just stop looking at the token price. Look at the mark market cap like that. That's where you see. Look at the. Look at their drops. So I wonder, do. Do you think the. If we actually going to slash all of that, all of that inflation, right? Maybe it's basic question. Are, are we kidding the money proper like the. The money property of Atom and putting it into like store value basket. Now. **B** (1:03:23): Going back, like bringing us back to the previous discussion, right? That's the whole thing of like, what does it mean to be a money asset? Like, is it to. Is Adam supposed to be this sound money style asset? If so, like, how many things can win at being the sound money asset? Right now we have like bitcoin and then far and much the front runner. Then maybe Ethan and then. Then definitely eat right. Eth is definitely the second runner. And then after that, who's. Where is there? It's like, I don't know, Dogecoin maybe. I actually think dogecoin is actually a pretty good store value. Like so. Or, you know, not sure about you, but it's a very good. Wait. Meme coins. How about that? That's really what it is. Like what we're trying. Gold is a meme coin. Bitcoin is a meme coin. Eth is like, can't decide if they're trying to be a utility token or a meme coin. Dogecoin is. Yeah, we're a meme coin. And so it's like, hey, is the purpose of Atom to be a meme coin? Whether it's supposed to be like, hey, let's be like, that's what money is, right? It's like, oh, it's just. What is the value proposition of Adam? Who cares? It's the meme that represents Cosmos ecosystem. That's one option. Or you go the more utilitarian route where like, hey, let's become an actual utility and have a product and an app and everything. And my take is like I said, I want to put my horse. I'm gonna. I want to back bitcoin as like the most credible meme coin and like the most likely to actually replace gold. And I think once bitcoin starts to be available in the cosmos ecosystem, I think it's going to massively become the like you know, it's going to become the main reserve asset of a lot of things. Right. And so that's why I'm like, maybe there's a world where Adam can, like, build enough dominance in the next couple years until Bitcoin comes over. Right. But, like, that's the question. It's like, do you want to compete against Bitcoin or do you want to go build a utility option? And that's kind of the decision that has to be made right now. **A** (1:05:27): Like, Osmosis was at the forefront of one other thing. Osmosis was at the forefront, I feel maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong of tokenomics. You know, Osmosis did that. By the. By the way, are you. Are you in rush? Because I don't know if, like. **B** (1:05:44): Nope. **A** (1:05:44): Okay, so there was so Osmosis first Airdrop, I believe, was before sieve chain, right? I. I didn't get the airdrop, by the way. You know, I, I got in cosmos in like March 2020, which was like, pretty good. And I held it on Coinbase for, for over a year. So, like, I remember when there was just the page of Osmosis and they would like, check your airdrop and I was pasting my. My, like, Coinbase or Binance address. Didn't know. Anyway, Osmosis came up with this tokenomics of tuning right to hardening. After that, all the other Cosmos tokens copy Osmosis tokenomics. It's like, why would you do it? You don't even know if it's the best economics out there. I feel Osmosis came out like, just to. To test it. Right. And there's always you riding the trend. **B** (1:06:42): Yeah. It was honestly, like, why did that tokenomics design get chosen? It's like, well, I don't know, like, you know, we wanted higher emissions at the beginning and we wanted to go. Go down over time. I think people like the meme of fixed supply tokens, I don't think that's actually sustainable long term, but like. And it's like we were like, okay, you know, thirdening, that's a cool idea. That's funny. It's kind of like bitcoin happening. And then it's like, hey, if we start with 100 million and then do 300 million first year, and then like do thirdening, and that gives you a max supply of 1 billion. And we're like, wow, all these numbers end up so pretty, pretty. And they fit together. What a nice set of numbers. Let's just do that. But, yeah, there's no, like, I Don't know how, what, what the right tokenomics are. And we fully, we wrote this in the blog post where like we said, hey, we fully expect that these tokenomics might be changed, right? Like it's unclear whether these are the perfect tokenomics. And you know, maybe OSMO should be changing its tokenomics at some point, right? Like, and that's for the current OSMO holders to decide. Our goal was to make sure we can come up with a good distribution of OSMO to early contributors and liquidity providers and users, right? And then it's like, okay, how do we, you know, then at some point governance will figure out how to probably decide that the, the model that we picked out of a hat, not out of a hat. You know, we spent a long time thinking about it but you know, the model that we designed two years ago might not be what's ne the right model for three years from now. **A** (1:08:13): Yeah, that's such a good point. Like, because I spoke about this recently, everyone in this cosmos chains that they have like max supply, everyone assumed that's it. It's like no, like you can change it like right away. And even I saw like, you know the, the Juno is lower in emission and I see the people tweeting like wow, it's gonna be so scarce. And like my thought is like bro, like if, if they run out with liquidity with community pool in few years, they're just gonna mint the out of there, you know. So it's like never. It's, it's not fixed supply. Like there is no chain. Like I think Jake Harnell even said, like even bitcoin doesn't have like fixed supply, it could be changed one day. It's probably will not so probably the bitcoin is the one that is probably closest to the fixed supply but nothing else has a really close supply. Like if you would issue tokenomics now, if you design, would you make it slightly different? **B** (1:09:16): No, not really. I think I'm actually pretty happy with the way the tokenomics work right now. **A** (1:09:24): I want to get back like maybe to the, to the money. We have this petrodollar system, right? And I was thinking we designed crypto, thinking we're like maybe designing new money. There's the bitcoin and there is stuff and when I'm looking at the market there is the bigger and bigger importance of the stablecoin and I start to thinking, hey, what if we actually will leave the petrodollar status and we'll move to crypto dollar status and especially I'm Seeing this, maybe I see it wrong with, with usdc, right. Because and I think maybe it's happening like we have the largest is still usdt. At some point someone might try to speculate on that and try to like you know, test it if they really can cover up. If there is no cover up, the USDT collapse and the importance of USDC grows. So I believe that could be in the business of the people who back up USDC, whoever it is. I don't know if BlackRock is back in eight but like, but they could, right? So then they could really create this standard of, of, of usdc. Do you feel like, well you said it will be basket of assets but do you think this companies maybe, maybe Wall street which makes sense of them, like they can put like cash on bank deposits that will sit nicely there and let the USDC grow. Do you think the crypto could get dominated by the dollar stable coin as the, as the major currency? **B** (1:11:11): Yeah, I mean that's kind of what we're doing. What's happening right now is, you know, let's see like in the top, you know, top five market assets by market cap, two of them are stable coins, right? Top seven, three of them are stable coins. **A** (1:11:26): Three? Yeah. Wow. **B** (1:11:28): It's like you know, you have, and I was speaking of the third one, right. Like I thought, you know, if you go back a month and a half ago, I thought it's like oh, we're in this two horse race right now between tether and USD and then busd just comes out. It didn't come out of nowhere. But the, the whole like finance like oh by the way, nope. Everyone who has USDC on binance now has BUSD instead. It's like oh okay, maybe we're in a three horse race. And you know I actually I'm not convinced that like it's not going to keep fragmenting. Oh you know, just today, right. Didn't FDX just announced that they're making their own stable coin? And so it's like I think there's going to be more and more Balkanization of stable coins and I don't know who's going to win to be, to be honest yet. But at the end of the day what, what is happening is the dollar is winning and that's you know, not necessarily great for what we wanted from crypto and I, I do hope that people. But we see like DAI for example moving away from the dollar peg and that's like very interesting. Right. And so I'm excited to see you Know I always, I mean when I talk to Doe about Tara stuff I always told like I'm like, hey, like you know at some point you have to de peg from the dollar. Right. Like the goal is. And he knew this, right? He's like, oh, the goal is not to be a dollar peg stable coin. Originally he started off not Tara started off not with a dollar peg stable coin. Right. They started with the SDR peg stable coin and but then they realized, okay, to get the initial traction and product market fit, they need the dollar peg stable coin because that's what the market was demanding. But like I think long term, if we're not deep trying to decorrelate from the dollar, it's like we're not really accomplishing what we set out to do. **A** (1:13:09): Yeah, but, but then it seems that the trend is like the dollar, right? Like the people want the dollar. So like everyone on Twitter hates the dollar. But at the end of the day everyone wants the dollar. Increasing the demand for the dollar. So if like I would easily imagine like in 5 years maybe USDC having like trillion dollar market cap. Like if, if, if there really demands grow. But doesn't it create the problem? Because we were speaking of the speculative bubbles. Right. And here is, here is the thing. Let me try to connect it. We had more banks in the past. We had more community banks that were doing due diligence to support the local businesses. So let's say smaller tribes. And as the time goes we head into more of the banking centralization which is like the, you know, the, the bank that merged, we, we get actually less branches of the banks over time. And I believe we are moving away from the support in the local businesses. But banks are incentivizing more of the speculative investments. And I wonder if the move into like USDC doesn't elevate this process even higher and the defy doesn't elevate the process even higher. Because if I would be great. Yeah, if you can get the loan that is maybe not even like fully collateralized to support your business, but what you are doing, you create all defi that's surrounded around the USDC stablecoin which is like I see us on the one central bank and all the investment and loans that everyone is doing is just speculative assets. Go on. **B** (1:15:06): This is why you mentioned I think a lot about monetary stuff in Cosmo. But you know Ethan Buckman, he thinks a lot about this stuff as well. And you know I really love the things he talks about with like hey, building local currencies, building local Economies like you have to build economies from the ground up and like focusing on these localized system and then intertwining them as they go up. Not at, not like building these like top down defi systems. So you know, I'm 100% in agreement with you. You know, I mean I, I agree with mesh everything. Right. And that's my whole philosophy. And mesh economies is the way to do it as well. Right. You want localized economies that then have more interdependency with each other. And yeah, I think that's kind of the cosmos architecture was literally built for this purpose. Right. We were like we need localized blockchains so they can support localized currencies for localized economies and then they all start intertwining with other, each other over this IBC protocol. **A** (1:16:03): Yeah. **B** (1:16:04): So that is. And you know, I think the informal team is doing a lot of interesting research and stuff on like moving towards local currencies. One of the projects I really love is called Circles ubi I think it's one. It's like how you create a UBI system out of like a decentralized web of trust. And so I don't know, there's like a lot of innovation and like work to be done on like buildings, local economies. And we, you know, this is sort of one of the things we, our team definitely wants to do. Like you know that's, this is our philosophy and we want to like help build the tools and stuff to enable this sort of experimentation with local econ. Local economies. **A** (1:16:43): Yeah, this is, but this is also like so difficult. Someone commented like when I, when I spoke about this centralization and the problem, problem with defy. Someone commented non defi is great. It allows person in Africa to buy like American assets. I'm like this is just so bad. Like this is, that's not good at all. Right. Like because that's just speculation. So how. Because it didn't work. **B** (1:17:10): It. **A** (1:17:10): I see it doesn't work this like this localism. It just. There is attempts but it doesn't work. Like we just keep going into this acceleration of centralization. How can we actually get into the localism, tribalism and support these communities? Is it via, via sovereigns or you. **B** (1:17:33): Look at the world. In the last five years I think we've seen a regret, a reversal in the trend toward globalism. Right. And we actually have seen more like n, you know, countries building more nationalistic lines and stuff. And so we actually had, I think we have actually at the political level started to see a reversal of trends from the, from Globalism, you're right. From economics we h. Haven't but we're actually starting to see that a little bit right now with like how you know there's a lot more protectionism and stuff starting in like sanctioning stuff happening in the world. So you know we are actually seeing a little bit of a reversal of that trend right now. **A** (1:18:20): I was thinking maybe, maybe NFTs are this like because I'm, I'm exploring this and I feel like NFTs are often the keys to the smaller communities. Maybe it will not be app chains, maybe it will be like NFTs and them as the, as the daos. I bought some and I got into groups and they're like very much into like mindset aligning. **B** (1:18:42): Yeah, yeah. So I mean one thing I, when I say about localism is that like you know it doesn't always have to be like in the physical world, right? You can have digital native communities that are still very localist, right. Like, like one of my Dave who's like one of the co founders of Osmosis, right, He's like, I would say some of his closest friends are his CTF group, the capture, it's like these like hacking companies competition and he had like been doing these CTF competitions with these people online that he met online for like years like and he only met them in person for the first time last year. And it's like some of his closest friends were these like online community. And I think that's like an interesting trend that we're gonna start to continue to see where communities form online. And then eventually you know, if you got, if you've like following like some of biology's stuff with like you know, network states and stuff like okay, communities form online in discord channels and daos and then eventually, okay, they're going to go kind of migrate to like one area and like build. They, they, they will eventually geographically coordinate with each other because the in person aspect of humanity is like irre, irreplaceable. Maybe, maybe with VR maybe it'll be different, I don't know. But for now it's not. And so I think what you do will happen is online communities will start to find each other in the physical world and start to co locate. **A** (1:20:09): This is exactly how I view it because like you know, I never used the discord before crypto and now I feel I might be even existing recently more into this in the discord communities than with my like friends in real life. Like and I see, hey, this discord community is Actually, my tribe, we are not. It's different because of course my tribe would be also like unpolished. So the Poland, my hometown, whatever. But also this online communities that don't have the, the, the boundaries of the language or the, the borders. This like also your, your tribes. And I saw it like, and now I just realized, hey, I think the NFTs, that's the role of NFT. NFTs are your like your own communities that I. Do you have any thoughts of NFTs? I know you owe the bad kid. **B** (1:21:12): I have one bad kid. **A** (1:21:14): That's a shame. **B** (1:21:16): Yeah, I, I just look for the one that looked the most like me and I, I took that one. Yeah, I don't. I mean I really like, I, I agree with you that NFTs are, they'll be a little bit of. There will be like a signaling mechanism to show what community you're part of. It's going to be like, you know, the, the, the, the, the current communities called countries, they have a signaling mechanism called flags. I think these digital communities are going to have signaling mechanisms called NFTs. Yeah, I think that's definitely valid. **A** (1:21:51): Yeah. **B** (1:21:52): Like, how do you, like, right now you see everyone in causes changing their Twitter profile pictures to bad kids, right? And it's like, oh, bad kids has become like the flag of cosmos. Like, oh, you know, you show you're part of the cosmos community by having a bad Twitter profile picture. **A** (1:22:08): Yeah. And that's what I was aiming, aiming for like the bad kids. Like, you know, like, you see the bad kids, it's, it's a cosmos guy now. Like, and I'm not sure if even it, if it will go outside of the cosmos, but it doesn't have to, you know, like, because it's, it's the, it's the inner culture. What I also see with NFTs, especially with the Twitter, I like the Twitter as the social network so much. Like, like, if you are public, like, you are public Persona, you are sunny. I go as the dawn, but everyone knows how I look. If I have the opinion that is politically incorrect, I might not really go and say it. But if I go to my like NFT community tribe and I run the like, you know, NFT pfp. I, I will not stop myself and no one will know. But people like, so they also allow you to be like, I can get one of the bad kids, make the PFP become the part of the community and be anon. And I can kind of like be myself as this character. Like, I will share my opinions More than I could as myself as like my perception in this, in this character. So that's another. **B** (1:23:22): So one of the things that we do want to do is move away from this idea of like right now, these NFTs, you can just buy them, right? And it's like, oh, you just buy your way into community and that's not what we want, right? What, that's kind of the experiment that we're building with the WASMO NFTs, which is like, how can we make a comm. Like these NFTs that represent your membership in a community, specifically in the osmosis community, but you earn your way into them. So how we do it is, okay, step one, be a user, you get the base nft, but then you start earning accessories and more things by being more active and doing stuff in the community, right? So like you'll, you'll get accessories for, you know, if you used osmosis at least three days in the week for the past month or something, right? Or you'll get osmo, you'll get something if you're in at least four pools or something. Or you know, you'll get a birthday hat if you were a user on the one year anniversary of osmosis. And it's like, it's ways of signal like, like I said, it's signaling membership in a group and but it's like, hey, we have to show that you actually earned your way into that, not just bought your way into that. That's sort of the experiment that we're trying to do with WASMO NFTs. And you know, it's, this is why it's taking a while. This is. I don't think anyone's done this well in crypto yet. Every NFT has. And so we're really trying to make sure we nail it correctly. But you know, you use. I don't know if people saw Josh, Josh Lee's tweet today, Dogemosis tweet today. He, he had this thing of like, you know, what if osmosis was more than just a dex? What if it was a lifestyle? And that's kind of like, you know, that's getting that right really hard, which is why it's taking longer than expected. But we're working towards it. **A** (1:25:09): Yeah, I'm, I'm checking this, this tweet now. There's like, is this a potion? Like it's the NFTs, right, that you, that you have now Potion. **B** (1:25:19): I know if you go, he had one more recent than that, which is. **A** (1:25:22): Like, yeah, like but, but I mean like there's also potion like so that's aim at that. Right? Those, you know, like that. That was such a great move and I don't think even it was like foreseen. But the great, like the osmosis, it's the branding. Like you see Wasmongton, like you see potions. Like, you know, this is osmosis. There is, I don't think there is other cryptos that have such a strong branding like osmosis. Like you could like the, you know, the Osmosis NFTs could be launched and they would be successful because of the branding. Like is so strong. Like with osmosis you bought like you build the brand. Right? Like these potions and everything, which kind of came naturally. Like, I don't think you predicted it back then. Right, but maybe you did. I, I think stride out. Like, let's go, let's go to strike. Well, like, let me know if you have to finish that though. **B** (1:26:23): Finish what? **A** (1:26:24): If, if you will have to go, just let me know. Okay. Yeah, I, I like the stride guys and I, I know you like there was some discussion about liquid staking. Maybe you. You want to like say like some issues about liquid staking first. Like, I think there was discussion recently with like Jay, you had, right? About the, the issues with that. **B** (1:26:48): Yeah. Oh, someone did point out in the chat that poops. You know, PO apps have been this like phenomenon in Ethereum where it has been sort of earning your way into communities by showing you've attended these events. So that. Yeah, that is a good point. Yeah, it's not the first one, but I think figuring out how to take that and make them as part of the avatars, the signaling. Some people don't usually make PO apps into their profile picture. I think that's what we're trying to figure out how to do with WASMO NFTs. Sorry. Okay, so your question about stride. **A** (1:27:16): Sorry to stop you here. This is really important because I see a lot of NFTs, like they don't look good as the profit file. This is so important. Like there might be great art, but you cannot, you can drown in this Persona because it's not like. So that's. That's good. But yeah, go on. **B** (1:27:38): Yeah. So liquid staking, you know anyone, if you've seen my talk from Cosmoverse last year, I'm not the biggest fan of liquid staking. I think it is definitely has like very negative impact on the security of profile of proof of stake. Like, you know, we design proof of stake with these unbonding periods for a reason, right? Like we want to make sure that like the right person gets slashed. With liquid staking, someone's getting slashed but it's not always the right person getting slashed and that's not good. And so the. Okay, so we have to not. So I don't think the chain should be like promoting liquid staking at the base layer, right. I don't think osmosis should be like making it easier to do liquid staking now. And that's why we build alternatives. Right? And like, I think trying to ban liquid staking is not going to work. People are always going to find their way around it. And so our goal was like, how do we do this? Is let's provide something that's better or you know, let's say it's like 90% as good, solves as much of the problem problem and it has a better ux and like that's what super fluid staking was. It's like, hey, let's get a lot of the benefits. You still get your staking rewards and using in defi. But like this is at least more safer for the chain than liquid staking would be. And so I think providing some a better alternative is how you actually fight things. Now maybe we're in this losing battle. Maybe it's not going to work. Right. And maybe liquid is inevitable. Right. And so I really do like the stride team because they at least are, you know, I really like the like, you know, same thing happened with the skip team as well where it's like they're always. Stride is very open to like feedback and like, hey, here's how we would design things to be like productive with the chains, right? It's like, okay, you know, I've made them suggestions of like, okay, what we don't want is someone to take over the stride chain and like, you know, shift all the delegation to one validator and use that as a way to take over over the chain. Right. So, okay, how do you solve this? Let's build in rate limiting, right? Let's make it so stride can't change its delegation in one one second. It takes, you know, it has to change, has to slow down the rate of change. And you can do that using cosmos and contracts on the source chains. And so there's things that str you can do to like make liquid staking safer. So that's what I, you know, I. It's like, yeah, let's do that for now. You know, I'm not the biggest fan of Liquid staking. But if it is going to happen, let's at least make it safer. Right. And so I think the Stride team has been pretty good at that and I think, you know, there's other liquid staking teams out there as well. And I, I think the Quicksilver team is pretty open to this kind of stuff as well. And so, you know, happy to see more and you know, we want to make sure there's a free competitive market. We don't want one. This is a problem in Ethereum where there's one team that there's one liquid staking protocol that like owns the entire market and I think that's very bad. So I want to see more competition in the liquid staking market. On in Cosmos. **A** (1:30:42): Yeah, I asked you about Stride because like I'm, I'm in contact with them and they're like, I, I know like some people assumed that you supported them, but I was like very impressed by the drive they have. Like. Yeah, they are just such hard working people. **B** (1:31:00): Yeah, exactly. So I mean I actually didn't even know them that way. Well, like I had, they, they, we, we actually overlapped at Berkeley, but I never met them. When I was at Berkeley I actually, you know, met, I met them for the first time. Like honestly the first time I met them was the day before their launch. I was at a co working space in New York and they happened to be there and I'm like, oh, you guys are the Stride guys. And so, you know, I met them there and then what happened was just that later that night I went out like, you know, it was like a Friday night or something. I was like drinking or going to some party or something. I left my backpack at the coworking space. So I come back at like 2am and like I'm like, oh, let me get my backpack. And they're like, they're on their laptops like grinding. It's like, okay, it is their launch week so obviously it is like they're gonna be there. But it's like, I don't know, I just like the dedication and like, you know, they seem like hard working guys. **A** (1:31:48): Yeah, like I heard that about them that they were like literally like sleeping in the offices or, or something trying to, to, trying to be, to be the first ones. You had the plans about the co working space in New York, isn't it? **B** (1:32:01): Yeah, it is still part of the pro in progress, you know, finding real estate, you know. Yeah, it's in progress. We, we're evaluating a couple of existing co working spaces. Versus maybe getting our own co working space. **A** (1:32:18): Like, you know, why New York? **B** (1:32:23): There's a lot of crypto people in New York. I mean, it's just, it's. I mean, I live in New York just because, you know, I like the city of New York. **A** (1:32:31): I thought you still at Berkeley. So I thought, like, I thought you are in the PST time. **B** (1:32:37): I'm pretty nomadic. I live in. I spent half my time in New York or probably less than half my time. Way less than half of that time. And other third, I, you know, I was in Columbia. Now I'm in Berkeley. Berkeley for a month. I'm going to Australia in next week. So that, you know, I'm pretty nomadic in general. **A** (1:32:54): But like, what, why Australia? What's going on there? **B** (1:33:01): There's a Dogecoin hackathon going on there. **A** (1:33:05): Well, that's good. Yeah, like I, I mean Dogecoin is like really promising. It has like, I could argue Dogecoin has the best economics out there. Like for now, you know, Jay is. **B** (1:33:17): Somewhat responsible for Dogecoin's tokenomics. So Dogecoin is supposed to have a fixed cap, but then there was a bug in it and so someone pointed out the bug. So you can go on the GitHub issue for this. Someone pointed out the bug and the Dogecoin developer, I got who it was. It wasn't Jackson or someone else. He was like, oh, like, hey, let's, you know, we should fix this. And then Jay comments on that GitHub issue. He's like, no, no, let's keep it like this. It's actually kind of cool to have this like continuous tail end emission. And so the dojo developers like, okay, yeah, we'll keep it like this. And so in a funny way, Jay is actually responsible for the Dogecoin tokenomics. But no, so, I mean, look, there's a. Dogecoin has been toying around with the idea for a while of switching to proof of stake. And I think that there is some interest in starting to explore that idea further. And so I'm going there to just sort of provide feedback and like, hey, if you guys are interested in this, here's how you would do it. This is how you would integrate with Tendermint and all this kind of stuff. And like, you know, it'll be great for Cosmos if a, a top 10 coin is. Or another top 10 coin is now running on top of Tendermint. **A** (1:34:32): I heard from Matt, Matt Bell, the nomic guy, that one of the early. Not sure if the founders of, of Dodge Coin is actually validator on nomic chain. I don't know which one is this, but he's like quite engaged. **B** (1:34:50): My. My greatest accomplishment in life. What I want on my tombstone is I once beat Jackson Palmer in a dogecoin themed scavenger hunter hunt. The Dogecoin conference in like 2018 and there was like a four hour long scavenger hunt and my team beat Jackson Palmer's team by like 60 seconds. And so that's how close it was. But yeah, that's my greatest accomplishment. **A** (1:35:17): Wow. Congratulations. I want to say like I love, you know, like get. Getting back to New. I love New New York. I visited New York this year and I feel I could leave there. I. I love the cities that have the. You know, many people say like, oh, New York is, is messy. It has, it has the. It has a lot of junk. It's like that's the beauty. Like I love to walk on this. **B** (1:35:43): New York is just pure chaotic energy and it's like, I love it. It's like, you know, it feels like this very bottom up like, like energy and just like spontaneous order through chaos. It's like I, I really like that. **A** (1:36:00): Yeah, I like it too. I like when I walk and I see people carrying something because there's like, it's hassle making your own dollar like all the time. Hong Kong has had this same, the same vibe. But like now like in New York it's like, yeah, I. I could leave there. It's. It's just so great. And someone said like New York has like pretty restrictive crypto regulations. But there is like stride stargaze. You said you are in New York. I guess maybe you could guys like partner and make this like crypto co working space. Not on osmosis. Right? **B** (1:36:36): Like, yeah, so there's. There's not that many osmosis people in New York. There's like, yeah, two or three. I'm there less than half the time. I spent. I spent my time between New York and Florida a lot. So yeah, like there's a lot of Cosmos people in New York. There's like. I mean the whole DYDX team isn't. Is. A lot of them are in New York. There's a lot of Stargaze people in New York. Yeah, Stride is there. Skip is there. The Apollo team is there. Cato team is there. So there's like a lot of people. There's a lot of. In general, there's a lot of crypto people in New York and then there's a lot of Cosmos people In New York. And I think it'll be really cool to have like, a cosmos co. Working space there. **A** (1:37:16): Like, like, why. Why we don't do the, the Cosmoverse in New York? Why. Why don't we do the Cosmo verse in like, real city? Like, where, where we have like, I. **B** (1:37:27): Don'T want to do it in like, Latin America. I think what. I think, like, at Cosmoverse there was a lot of people from like the, like, you know, from Colombia, from like, local neighboring country or nearby countries. Right. And I think it was cool to like, kind of bring crypto education and bring these things to new places rather than the same few cities that we, that everything else is always in. **A** (1:37:55): Yeah, I, I guess I'm just like that lazy, you know, I like that. I want the big international airport and good, juicy steak. That's the, that's, that's, that's good steaks. **B** (1:38:07): I had a lot of steak in Colombia. It was pretty good. **A** (1:38:09): Yeah. Were they like, but, but were they, like, really good? Were they like, dissolving, like, were like, really tender? **B** (1:38:17): No. No. Okay. In Colombia, they definitely, the steaks were definitely a little bit overcooked. I'll say that. They don't, they don't do rare. **A** (1:38:26): That is the. You see, you can always like, and, and maybe that sounds bad. Like, I feel you can always see the level of development of 3 based on how good steak there is. Like, it's like in 90s, in Poland, like, even 15 years ago, you couldn't get good steak. It was all overcooked. The concept of like medium rare or rare, like, was so, so weird. But, but also like, I, I, I, we, we went human. Sorry. **B** (1:38:59): I said. That's interesting. I'm gonna try to, like, see how I'm, I'm gonna like, keep this in mind. Every time I visit a new place. I'm gonna like, see what the correlation between steak quality and like, economic development is. **A** (1:39:11): Please do, because I do feel like you could really judge this way. Like, and, and New York would be like, you know, there is the New York as the, as the, as the great stake and you have like, really high, high development London and places like this. But then you could go to like, less developed countries and they will have like, great service, great atmosphere, and many people will enjoy that because maybe not many people are like, steak connoisseur, you know, and we like, we, me and my wife, few months ago, like, so we did New York, like Vegas, Mexico, and we went in Mexico City and we googled this grill place and we're like, oh, we are going for this good steak. And they had like beautiful menu, like proper grill place and they had like New York cut and stuff and we ordered that and we like as soon as we started eating this like the, the sadness was like overwhelming. It was like just chewy. It presentation of that was so good. So then when we went back to New York we went for a steak and this was like, you know, bliss for, for the soul, just so tender, you know. So I, I have this concept but I'm afraid that's a little like discriminatory saying, saying that, that you could judge the, the development of the country. Sunny, why is OSMO pumping? People are asking why is Osmo pumping? **B** (1:40:51): It's obvious because I came on this, this episode and like, you know, everyone's like, oh my God, he's finally on Don's YouTube and that's like, that's probably what it is. **A** (1:41:00): I'm going to use this as the marketing for people to come over like look what happens. Like he just came chatting and like the price pump 30%. That's the, that's the effect. Like I, I, I joined the Stargaze two weeks ago or something like not non contract, like non official but like you know, Shane gave me a job and the price performed like 30% up. So I'm just saying it's, it's purely because of me. Like that's the effect. Mesh security, there is something like that. You, you keep saying that we could use the security from the different chains that you validate. So there's like, I feel there is the war between the Hub and others using mesh security. But my question is, do we really even need that? I feel we are pretty good with the, just I think it's easy to get the good set of validators like Osmosis started and it has good validators. Why do we even need mesh security? I think that the concept that there is so difficult to find validators and stuff like this is big overstatement. **B** (1:42:11): Yeah, I agree. So mesh security is not supposed to solve the finding validators problem. What it's supposed to do, making it so more economic stake is backing the validators on the chain. Right. So the thing is you could go buy up a third of OSMO and then stake it and then use that to attack a chain. Right. And so the idea is hey, let's increase the amount the economic cost of doing that. So let's say two chains like Osmosis and Juno do mesh security with each other. You don't have to Buy one third of Osmo. You have to buy 1/3 of Osmo plus Juno. And so the idea is that we just increase the cost of doing an attack. So that's the point. It's both the chains, both still have their own validator sets sovereignty. But it's like, you know, these chains want to increase the security cost of them. And this is very important for like imagine a chain like Osmosis and Axelar, right? Like 70 of actual RTVL is osmosis. 4 of the top 10 assets on osmosis are from Axelar. It's like how it would suck a lot for Osmosis if Axelar got attacked, right? It also a lot for Axelar if Osmosis got attacked. So let's do it. Take over any of the chains. They have to, you know, take over, you know, you have to get, take over. The market cap of Osmo should be helping secure Axelar. And it is in Osmosis interest to do that. And so that's sort of the idea behind Mesh Security. **A** (1:43:46): Yeah, that's really good. And sorry for like my wife sneaking here, here and trying to take the cat away, you know, she's like sliding on the floor like because so sorry for that. She. She has a lunch break. She has a lunch break because like I was asking because a lot of talk and everyone says like, oh, we don't need Mesh security. Wow. It doesn't make any sense, right? **B** (1:44:14): I think it's strictly value add and it's an opt in thing. That's the beauty of everything in Cosmos. Everything is opt in. If Osmosis and Axel are want to share do Mesh Security. That is a decision between two consenting chains, right? And it's like that doesn't impact a third chain and it's not forcing anyone to do Mesh security. That's always been the vision of Cosmos. **A** (1:44:39): I also kind of feel the Mesh security can be less, less bureaucratic than the Cosmos because you said like, hey, if Axel wants to do with us, it's like common like, hey, let's do it. But with Cosmos there's like all this bureaucratic process that I think will be much slower. And I kind of feel this, like other chains might like ship this faster. So that could be the speed of shipping. **B** (1:45:03): Mesh Security has, to be honest, surprised me because I'll admit we came up with this as an idea to present at Cosmoverse and we made it clear to people that like, hey, we don't have time to build this until next year, like until 2023, because right now, our team is focused on shipping, stable swap, cross chain swaps, and concentrated liquidity. Those are our, like, focuses. But then as soon as I, When I presented it, so many people were so excited by it. Like, Jay Cartnell from Juno and then Ethan Fry from Confio. They're like, okay, we're gonna start building it this weekend. And they started hacking on it and got a lot done, like a proof of concept. And now there's more people contributing to it. There's like, you know, it has a lot of people contributing to it and it's like, it's like, really cool to see. Like, it's. It's really. What it is, is mesh development on top of. For mesh security. It's not. Osmosis is actually probably one of the least team teams that have been contributing on the. The code side, the least. It's been like, a lot of Juno people, Daodao people. It's been really cool to see, like. **A** (1:46:08): People probably, like, never thought that Osmosis would work with. With Juno. So I think the kind of, like, some chains getting wrecked along the way improve the relationships with. With others. I don't know. **B** (1:46:22): I mean, I. I feel like everyone, like, seemed to, like, over exaggerate this, like, conflict between Osmosis and Juno that I don't think was actually there. Like, we, like, individual people of the osmosis community, including me. Like, there's a governance proposal on Juno that we had strong opinions on and we were in the minority of the opinion, but we are, you know, you know me, I'm very vocal about all my opinions and I voiced my opinion on a governance proposal on Juno and then it somehow turned into this narrative of, oh, Osmosis and Juno hate each other and are fighting. It's like, what. Like, this had nothing to do with Osmosis even. This was literally like I was voicing an opinion on a governance proposal of Juno and like, just because I was in the minority, it's now an attack on Juno. It's like, yeah, that's not how it. That's crazy. Like, I, I always, you know, Jake is one of my, like, favorite people in, like, Crypto. And. And like, you know, I think that, like, I'm really happy to, you know, I'm happy that we're, like, even collaborating on a lot of, like, new development stuff. And, you know, I think the Juno osmosis relationship is, like, great. **A** (1:47:32): This is what people don't get, that Twitter is just Twitter. Like, and I remember these moments, like, there was someone. Someone shares opinion and and, and this, this is, this is also interesting social experiment, like how people react to the. Those things, right? Like so. Oh, like, here is, Here is the person we remember. Sunny Juno, Prop 16 fat. So essentially, like, what? Not too fat about Prop 16. **B** (1:48:02): I hated Prop 16. And I, I still today, to this day think Prop 16 was a bad idea. That doesn't mean I hate, you know, like, if I have a strong thought on one governance proposal, that doesn't mean I hate the chain. **A** (1:48:17): So like, I, I was very, what. I was very vocal against Prop 16. And, and people ask me to leave the Juno community. Like, like so. But it's like, like so it means you are not allowed to be against. So like, let's say one chain has the leader. So you are like, viewed maybe as the leader of Osmosis, even though it's not necessarily fully true because there's many people and you, if someone comes at you and says, like, sana is dumb. And then everyone jump on them like, hey, you, father Osmo father, get out of this. Like, you know, like, we don't like you here. And this was the case. But. But interesting. And, and also the longer Cosmos conversation goes, like, the, the chances of approaching the Prop 16 subject hits, you know, one right or zero. Like, so. So Prop 16 people, I think now see the negative impact of that. And I, I see also the relation. The hate towards me from Juno community is much less now than back then. And I think because of the realization of, of, of the mistakes. And I like to observe Twitter. I saw the people who were like, very excited about this month or two months after Prop 16, they were tweeting about being depressed. Now I don't see them on Twitter anymore. Which is, which is another like, so I think that there was a lot of mistakes, but like, yeah, Twitter is just like, I realized the more like, offensive I will get sometimes just, just trolling, right? The more engagement I'm gonna get. **B** (1:50:04): Yeah, just. **A** (1:50:08): So, like recently, I give you another example which was I. I had to get. I tweeted I sold all my bad kids and I'm out. Thank you for like buying them or something. Like, essentially I tweeted that it was my exit liquidity. People in the bad kids discord start saying like, hey, what's with Don Kryptonium? You know, he's part of validator of the bad kids. So I undelegated from the bad kids. And I'm like, come on. Like, you're not fun here. It's bad kid community. It's meant to be fun. So, like, people get this too literal, you know, Twitter, of course, the figment dumped people. If you have some questions at the end for. For Sunny. Sunny, is there anything that you never asked and you are like, why never. No one asked me this question. Difficult one, right? **B** (1:51:13): I don't know if my brain indexes off of what I haven't been asked asked. I mean, something you want. I really like that this. This episode was like, way more like, oh, we just talk about, like, monetary systems and stuff instead of like, oh, like osmosis roadmap, you know, I think this is way more fun and interesting, you know, that's the stuff I love to talk about, you know, so I'm happy we got to do that quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah. **A** (1:51:39): Thank you. Like, I like, you know, I'm just like, stupid guy. And I love to think of, like, money and monetary systems. And always when I talk, like, people come and, like, try to roast me, like, oh, you shouldn't speak. Like you don't know anything about Bitcoin. But I just think, like, the money is like the, like, so beautiful. Trying to figure out how it works. So I always like to. To chat about this. Someone asking, is Ion like photon of onosmosis? **B** (1:52:11): No, I mean, ion is a. You know, it started as a meme coin that then, you know, it got a team behind it and started to actually get like, you know. Now I don't know if people have seen the ION 3.0 proposal1. One thing, by the way, for to clear things up. You know, I'm not the developer, I'm not the one building the Science 3.0, 3.0 stuff, right? There's another team that's building it called Alpha Works, and they are sort of leading. I'm just like, giving feedback here and there. But like, so there's an Ion 3.0 thing. It's. The idea is like, hey, turn Ion into the governance token of create an index token for Cosmos. So it's called ibcx. And that's like, hey, let's create an ETF sort of thing, but for all the Cosmos ecosystem assets. So right now there's this problem which there's no way to invest in Cosmos because Cosmos doesn't have a token, right? There's no token for the Cosmos ecosystem. So what do you do is you have to have a index of all the Cosmos assets, right? And so let's say like something like market cap weighted or square root market cap weighted or something like that, right? Where they're like, okay, look, I mean, it'll be like some portion Atom, some portion osmo, some portion Juno, some portion Secret, some portion Stars like you know, it'll all of these causes an ion will just be the, it'll be a governance system for that. It will choose which tokens to add because you don't want scam tokens part of this index. Right. So there has to be something, a bar that ion can be the governance token for that. And then we can have this index token as like you know, push it as hey, you want to invest in the IBC ecosystem, you buy ibcx, right? That's how you do it. And it's a portfolio bet. And then the nice thing is because it's this diversified portfolio bet, hopefully it's more risk free than any individual token and then it's a good collateral to be used throughout different things in Cosmos. Right. And so then the other product they want to create is a stablecoin called iou which is going to be a over collateralized StableCoin backed by IBCX. So it's like it's a stable coin backed by a portfolio of Cosmos assets. And so that's what they're building right now. And Ion is going to be just the governance token of these things and you know it can get some. Yeah, so that's kind of what ION is. So it's like it's the governance token of a new protocol and it'll maybe one day it'll probably break off onto its own chain at some point like. **A** (1:54:47): Someone like asking ibcx but like I think they might be getting after like the deceptive marketing of that. **B** (1:54:58): Yeah, I mean look, I mean it was a name that. **A** (1:55:01): Oh no, I don't know. Glp. **B** (1:55:07): GLP is a token from GMX on derivatives protocol on Arbitron and sort of this like port portfolio, LP position. Similar but I mean here it's not a liquidity providing position, it's. It's more like. The better analogy is DPI D5 pulse index and it's a token on Ethereum. That's the, it's a basket of a bunch of defi assets, a compound uni maker. It has like, it's an index of defi. Defi index. **A** (1:55:40): Yeah. You know like people, people ask you about the, the hair products because your hair is so beautiful. Do you use something special or just naturally have such beautiful hair? **B** (1:55:57): No, I mean I, I think today it's natural. Sometimes I'll put in like straightener because I have very curly hair. People are like, people are like hey you're you know, your profile picture, your bad kid has like curly hair. But like my, because my hair is like very curly naturally so I have to like put like straightener in it. **A** (1:56:16): Right. Well, I'm a little bit jealous. My hair very miserable balding. I, I medicate myself to, to not lose more hair. So is, is. Do you, do you worry about stealing some of your equity or. No. **B** (1:56:34): No, not really. I mean I think we are, we're like. I think DYDX is very much focused on like the derivatives market right now. We're more focused on spot. Maybe down the road we start to do more derivative stuff. They maybe start to do spot. But I think like our architectures are pretty different. You know, they're building these like off chain order book style thing and I think that's a very interesting design. I'm worried about the MEV on that while we're going for a more fully on chain approach and so we'll see how those work out. But in general we've actually been working together on a lot of things. So like we've been collaborating on, you know, helping USDC come over to Cosmos. We've been helping, we've been collaborating on like even what they, what, what, what DYDX wants to do is their Ethereum users. They have the Ethereum USDC and they need to have osmosis so they want to, they need to have like Cosmos native usdc so they want to make it easy to use osmosis as stable swaps to allow users to convert to the right USDC and then they're pretty new to Cosmos and our team has been building the stack for a long time and so we help them out a lot on just helping them with how to set up testnets. I think our teams have been very. **A** (1:57:47): Collaborative actually and someone, someone asking about when Sanit daily facts on Twitter. **B** (1:57:58): At some point I gotta do it. Yeah, it's, you know, I miss them. It was once Osmosis launched it became really hard. I. I try to post them every now and then. I'm gonna see if I can get back into a more regular maybe once a week or something like that. **A** (1:58:17): Do you know like the. I need to say that at the end because he asked me to. Angry Mouse. Do you know user called Angry Mouse? The user that tried to hold Osmo? **B** (1:58:32): Yes, I do. I. I mean I don't know them personally but I. Yeah, yeah, he asked. **A** (1:58:36): Me if you can unblock them. Unblock him from where? Where is he blocked on, on Twitter? **B** (1:58:44): I blocked him personally. **A** (1:58:46): Yeah. Yeah, he said he's, he's blocked or, or maybe it's on the, on, on the Telegram. Osmo Telegram. Because I know he said he was cute. **B** (1:58:56): I don't, I don't think there's a telegram that's like, yeah, you have to reach out to the support team. **A** (1:59:01): Very talented guy. I think he's like 18, you know, like, he's like, his abilities are like. But you, you can see like the, the age something times. Yeah, like I'm, I'm gonna try to hold Osma. **B** (1:59:15): You're gonna hold something? You know, maybe submit a bug report first or if you're really like, I want to do this in fraud. You know, go halt the test Net. Don't try to do it on main net. That's not cool. **A** (1:59:28): Well, I spoke to him and he said he, he was speaking in the Telegram about this issue, that Osmo could be halted this way. And he said it was ignored. **B** (1:59:38): Yeah, but none of the, the devs don't spend our time on the top. Like, yeah, there's other ways to get a hold of us. **A** (1:59:46): Yeah, but like I'm in touch with him. Like very, very, very nice boy. So like I said I'm going live with Sunny and he said, oh, can you ask him to, to unblock me? Not sure, not sure where. What's your favorite book at the end? **B** (2:00:05): Yeah, I think my favorite is probably Zero to one by Peter Thiel. Yeah, that's probably my favorite. High up there is probably Swarm Wise. Swarm Wise by Rick Falkfin. She was the founder of the Pirate Party. And it's about how to create like decentralized movements that are like. And then. Yeah, and there's a couple others I actually have. If you go on my website, if you go to Sunny. My website is sunnya97.com. Same with my handle. And if you go slash canon, it actually has a list of my like favorite books and articles and stuff and just things that have like generally shaped my world view. **A** (2:00:53): Oh yeah, I see. Zero. Yeah. Like, so everyone like, let me me, let me, let me share it here. That, that's really cool. Like I, you know, I like this question because like asking like someone or what you read is. It's always giving you some, some cool idea. Do you watch movies like that's story. Like what movies you like? **B** (2:01:18): I, I actually like TV shows more than movies to be honest. But I, I don't know, like, what's. **A** (2:01:26): The best TV shows you've seen? **B** (2:01:29): Mr. Robot? This is my favorite show. **A** (2:01:33): I, I watched like the first two seasons and then. Then I stopped, but it was, like, really intense. So. **B** (2:01:38): So here's the thing. Everyone watches the second season and stops. Like, I know 90 of people, I think watch the same. The rank order of the seasons goes season three is the best, then season one, then season four, then season two. So the problem is everyone's like, wow, season one, amazing. Then they, like, watch season two, and they're like, oh, this is so bad. Or like, it's not. It's just not the same. But then they're missing out on the, like, pinnacle of television that is season three. **A** (2:02:10): Okay, I'm. I'm gonna get into season three. There's also like, the more I age, the. The less I watch. It's like sometimes I want to. I used to watch so many TV shows, you know, like, the. I'm. I was. I am huge fan of, like, Sopranos. For me, it's like the top. Top of the. Because I'm. I'm not non developer, so probably that's. **B** (2:02:32): Why I only started watching the Sopranos recently, like, you know, a couple. A couple of months ago. But, you know, I grew up in New Jersey, and I think watching thepranos has given me a new. New, like. Like how I look at New Jersey, it's like, whoa, like, just walk by this Italian deli and like, oh, what's going on in the back there? And it's like, I don't know. It's been really interesting. **A** (2:02:53): Yeah. For me, it's like, really good because it actually, like, it's. It's big representation of like also the. The. Like the. The very. The life in the simple meaning. But by simple, I mean. I mean good, like the family life, the. The growing up and. And things like this. So anyway, we passed two hours, like, sunny, thank you for your time. It's like middle of the night. I'm gonna get off, like, do the coffee for the. For my wife. Friends in this lunch break, it was amazing to. To. To talk to you. It's possible that I maybe missed something I wanted to ask you, but I never, like, write down. So. Yeah, like, I hope maybe one day we can do it again. So once again, thank you. This was such a great insights from you and enjoy your night. **B** (2:03:48): Awesome. Thank you. This was really fun. **A** (2:03:51): Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye.