**A** (0:00):
Foreign.
**B** (0:06):
This is the Defi Decoded podcast by ninepoint Partners in cooperation with Prophecy Defi. The ideas and opinions expressed in this podcast should not be taken as investment advice. Always consult with your financial advisor before investing.
**C** (0:25):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Defi Decoded. I'm Alex Papscott and here with special guest and fan favorite Sunny Aggarwal, co founder of Osmosis. Sunny, welcome back.
**A** (0:37):
Thank you. It's been, I think almost exactly a year, maybe a little bit over a year. Yeah, it has.
**C** (0:43):
We're just looking back at the last episode was I believe in October of last year. So I think about 10 months. And at the time you had recently closed a pretty transformational financing round. DeFi TVL metric we look at was hitting new highs across the board. We're seeing tons of uptake on alt layer ones, EVM compatible chains like Avalanche, but also standalone like Swana. Cosmos is riding high. Osmosis itself is doing really well. And now fast forward a year and we are in a totally different kind of market. There have been some high profile setbacks I think for the industry. I think a lot of the decline in overall asset prices is due to forces beyond crypto. But we'd love, we've talked about it at length on the show. Just you know, what is your sense on the state of the market here in August, starting September, new school year 2022. Love to just get your take on things.
**A** (1:42):
Yeah. So you know, the three year, the crypto three year cycle is live and well it turns out the super cycle was 10 not real. It was, you know, following the typical rules. Obviously, you know, there's a little bit of questions of like, oh, does the three year cycle still hold where like, you know, is it a little bit uncharted territory where like you mentioned like, you know, different macro environment this time. Right. Like typically you had crypto as an industry tech, really tech literally only around since 2009. And in that time, you know, we've been in this like global macro environment effectively right in the life lifetime of crypto. And this is the first time crypto is like going through a like you know, global macro bear market. And so it's an interesting to see how that impacts things. But you know, in general a lot of especially like with like the whole everything that's been happening with CEFI over the last few months, it's very interesting to see that like, you know, a lot of we're still so far with like what crypto was meant to do especially you know, at least on The DEFI side of things, which is where I spend a lot of my time thinking about. But like, you know, we feels like we ended up replicating a lot of the, you know, 2008 traditional finance situation in not in Defi, but in a lot of these like C5 things. And so, you know, it kind of shows, okay, look, we've got quite a bit, but there's still a long way to go and like towards making this stuff actually solve the problems we as an industry set out to solve initially.
**C** (3:20):
Yeah, well that's interesting. You mentioned the difference between how CEFI reacted and DEFI reacted when market conditions began to deteriorate the way they did. And it was a lot. All of the high profile failures in crypto, with the exception of Terra Luna, were CEFI projects or companies. Actually they were corporations, they had made bad loans, they couldn't satisfy their debts and so in many instances had to declare bankruptcy. Contrast that with Defi, which despite seeing.
**A** (3:52):
Overall.
**C** (3:54):
Market size contracting and users maybe being liquidated and losing money, the actual system itself worked very well in pretty trying circumstances, which I don't think should be too surprising because we actually have some experience with this. MakerDAO, for example, participated in the last bear market where the value of the underlying collateral most of the time went down by 90% and yet was able to maintain a peg. So we actually know that these kinds of models can work really well. But I do agree that I think that for some people this was a real proof point for DeFi, but also I think a sign of how far we still have to go. The story on the macro front is also interesting because there have been ups and downs in the last 12 years where market conditions have deteriorated or gotten better overall and crypto's kind of marched to the beat of its own drum and kind of been independent from that. In fact, that's always been one of the big selling features for investors is that bitcoin and other crypto assets are non correlated. Well, in the last nine months that's changed quite a bit. Now what's really interesting to me is if markets deteriorate, they can have an impact on the industry because for a couple of reasons. One is maybe there are fewer investors who are willing to put that incremental dollar into a new project and starve for cash. Some of them might fold, people will lose their jobs. Defi projects might not get off the ground, that's one thing. Or you could make the case that the value of the assets goes down and that causes people to lose faith. Their Confidence that this is an area where they should be putting their money into that causes the market to contract. And I wonder, are we seeing either of those things playing out? Maybe you can speak to your own personal experience.
**A** (5:44):
I feel like obviously there's been a little bit of, to be honest, like, especially if you, if you go back like six months, I think a lot of the valuations were actually a little bit bonkers actually. And I'll say that now, like, if you look at like just like private markets and crypto, like things are still getting funded and like new, new projects are still getting funded. I don't think there's been a general like, oh, all investment has stopped. I think people are being a little bit more wary about what they're investing in. And it was actually honestly just a little bit of a needed correction to the mania that was going on a few months, six, nine months ago.
**C** (6:26):
What about user adoption? So in the case of osmosis, for example, and we're going to get to what's new with you, but you had an amazing first six months of growth and I think maybe just keep in mind for everyone who's listening, I think you're 14 months from launch, right? Something like that. So it's been quite an eventful year in the last six months with general market conditions contracting. What are you seeing in terms of usage on the platform?
**A** (6:54):
Yeah, so, you know, one of the nice things on DEX is, is the, you know, usage kind of, you kind of, you know, have usage when the market's going a little bit of both directions. Right? Because unlike a, you know, let's say a lending protocol or something where it's like primarily driven by lever leverage, it's like, oh, okay, well, if people are not buying, you know, if, if the market's contracting the total leverage and the system's going down, the platform shrinks. That's not as true with a DEX because, you know, there's trading happening, sort of whatever the price is. But obviously, yeah, you know, there is, we have noticed a slight, you know, a decrease in the number of new use like, or the number of users has actually not like decreased. But you know, let's say the second derivative of the users of like new users coming on definitely has gone a little bit down just as the, as the market slows a little bit. But you know, for us I think this is like, well, for us this is kind of nice because it actually gives us time to sort of build out a lot of these like longer term features that we were trying to do. So like, you know, from a builder's perspective, you know, there's things that you can build in the bear market and there's things that you build in the bull market. And like, during the bull market there was like, you know, there's these features that we knew that we wanted to build and like, we knew they take like, hey, these are going to take like three or six months, six months, like timelines. And it's like, well, we got to keep prioritizing these faster, one or two month, like, features and like getting them out the door faster. But this gives us time to sort of like work on building out some of these larger features. So that way, once market dynamics, like change a little bit. You know, we, our platform is at, this is a, the product is at a stage where we're, you know, we're ready to like, bring in the next, like, swap developers. You know, I mentioned like, I think last time, you know, one of our big views is like, we're, we're trying to compete with centralized exchanges and match a lot of, like, the UX flows that they have. And so my hope, my hope is that, like, by the time the next bull market comes around, osmosis is at a point where it can be a meaningful, like, first entry point for, for new people coming into crypto. Right. Like, I, so far, osmosis has still been like, you know, crypto native people coming in and, you know, that's what we're hoping to change by the next time.
**C** (9:27):
Then why is it important that people use osmosis? Well, rather than a centralized exchange, other than you're the creator of osmosis and you'd like that to be. What is it that Dex can do better than centralized exchanges?
**A** (9:39):
Yeah. So I think the. So you and I actually talked, you know, not on the podcast, but we talked a few weeks ago, and I think while we were chatting, we came up with this line that I actually loved so much. I think it's become my catchphrase since.
**C** (9:55):
Then, which is, I think you should be crediting me for it.
**A** (9:59):
I'll credit you for it next time. Yeah, but it's like, it's. What we came up with was privacy for the individual, transparency for the system. Yeah. And it's like, I think that's sort of what Dex is really doing. So that's, you know, when we started osmosis, we actually started it from this, like, privacy focus. How do we, how do we build a private. So, you know, look, look at centralized exchanges. Like, not, not even like centralized exchanges, but like, you Know like crypto exchanges, but like normal exchanges like Robinhood and stuff. Right. How do they make all of their money? They're, they're basically selling. So you know, they're front running users but they're not actually, you know, it's illegal for them to front run. So what they do is they actually take your user data, trade data and sell it to companies like Citadel who then front run. And like this is basically a user privacy breach in my, in my opinion. Right. And like in the, you know, data is the new oil. And when you're using like centralized systems, you kind of whoever has control of that data is, you know, they're king. And you know, when you trade on something like ftx, are you sure that Alameda is not like reading every single trade that's coming in? And so it's like, with a decentralized system you can actually build like privacy in a way that's like trustless privacy where you know that like, hey, no one actually has privileged access to, to the data and has this like edge over everyone else. And so that's sort of like, I think the sell gonna be. The main selling point of Dexs is this like level of trustless privacy that you get while you still get all these like, benefits, you know, transparency in the system where you understand that the rules of the system are, are working, you know, in a trend, in a correct way and in a transparent way. You know, you want certain levels of aggregate information about the economic system to be public. Right. Like you want to see like, hey, how much leverage is there in the system as a whole, how much, you know, all these aggregate metrics. Anyone can like have all that data visible. Yeah.
**C** (12:15):
I mean, I think that the Robinhood model is very much just a web2 model for how to build a business.
**A** (12:20):
Right.
**C** (12:21):
Which is that it's all about getting as many customers as you can and then once you've got all those customers, then creating a monetization strategy which typically involves selling data. Right. It's not really that different than how Instagram and other platforms monetize users. And if you're not paying for the product, you are the product. So when Robinhood went to fee, it.
**A** (12:39):
Could have been a red flag for.
**C** (12:41):
People, probably more than a positive thing. And in the case of Dexs, you've got this immutable and transparent system that prevents that kind of capture from occurring at the platform level. I think that's very interesting.
**A** (12:56):
So let's talk a little bit about.
**C** (12:58):
Your plans to go mainstream with this because let's Just repeat that. Let's talk about your plans to go mainstream with this because there was a time when your biggest trading pair was ust, right? And that was a source of liquidity and I think probably a big on ramp for users because it's a fiat gateway, in essence a way to get money in and out of the decks. And now that's no longer obviously the case with the collapse of ust. So what are you planning to do and to build out in order to create those conditions for more people to use it rather than those centralized exchanges as their first entry point into crypto?
**A** (13:38):
Yeah, so we, yeah, like you mentioned, we had sort of were pretty exposed to USD. So Osmosis is part of this like larger ecosystem called Cosmos or it's actually in a rebranding process or rebranding it to the Interchange ecosystem. But the, a lot of rebrands, you.
**C** (13:59):
Know, there's ibc, then there's Cosmos.
**A** (14:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
**C** (14:03):
The Interchange ecosystem.
**A** (14:04):
The interchange ecosystem is this network of chains that's connected by this like protocol called ibc, similar to how the Internet is connected by the Internet protocol. This is IBC interchanged by the IBC protocol. So this I, you know, Terra was built on the, you know, interchange stack. It was an IBC enabled chain and really it was sort of the only IBC enabled stablecoin that was available. And so it kind of like quickly became this like very dominant force within Osmosis. Almost half the liquidity on Osmosis. Osmosis was the biggest dex for ust and it was almost half the liquidity on Osmosis was like paired with UST and Luna. And it was a great source of like, you know, like you mentioned new users, new liquidity. But when that whole house of cards came tumbling down, Osmosis kind of was hit pretty hard. It caused a lot of the, you know, a lot of liquidity that was on Osmosis to, to evaporate effectively as well as, you know. But what's interesting is a lot of the users actually ended up staying and in fact, you know, a lot of the people who were, and a lot of the developers as well who were like very like Terra focused actually have migrated over to like building stuff on top of Osmosis. So there's some opportunities that came out of that as well. But okay, so where's this new. Where how do we funnel new users to come on? So we're working with a few fiat on ramps to, to do this. You know, at the end of the day, one thing That a Dex can't do is at least yet is interface with the traditional banking system. Right. And so you still need to have sort of some centralized entities that can offer the sort of the bridge between Fiat Money and stablecoins on chain. So you know, as we, you know, with the collapse of ust, Osmosis has shifted much more towards, you know, a lot more USDC on the platform right now. So right now it's coming from Ethereum but there's going to be like native USDC in the interchange pretty soon as well.
**C** (16:12):
That's interesting. What do you think that'll happen?
**A** (16:16):
Probably around like Q1 of next year is my prediction. Yeah. So we'll have like IBC native usdc. So that it's nice because that will avoid a lot of like the bridge risk that that's there.
**C** (16:30):
Yeah.
**A** (16:30):
So you know, with usdc, you know, but we're working with a couple of fiat on ramps. You know they're working with one called Cato, we're working on called Transact. So Cato is actually you know, one of the Terra transplants that came over from the Terra ecosystem and now are you know, building a lot of stuff with us on Osmosis. But so being able to like, you know, but what's cool is like you know, we want this like sort of free market of fiat on ramp program providers. Right. So that's why instead of like picking one on ramp provider we, we can pick multiple and then actually use like what we call like fiat on ramp aggregator. So there's one that we, we're working on with called On Ramper which is basically a fiat on ramp aggregator. So it aggregates over multiple fiat on ramps and creates this like free market where different on ramp providers can like compete and the and on Ramper will choose the one with the best pricing and stuff.
**C** (17:19):
So that's how we crypto native on ramps. Right. Using stablecoins or are they so, so what, so what we're the banking system as you just.
**A** (17:28):
Yeah, so it's connected to the banking system so. Or like both Cato and Transact sort of have like, you know, different sorts of integrations. Transact seems to be much more focused on you know, credit cards, they have Apple Pay integration while Cato is much more focused on like you know, wire transfer. So you know another nice thing about aggregating over different providers is you can like take the benefits. You know, some of them support different on like sources. Sources. Some people support like different jurisdictions and stuff. So you get you know, by aggregating you get a lot of benefits. You know, you take the union of all of their functionalities. But yeah, so the idea would be, you know, there's a couple of stages of this. So V1 is you can, you know, get USDC on osmosis from, you know, fiat from your bank account. So you send some fiat, you make a wire transfer and then you show up with USDC in your osmosis account. But then the next step is, you know, we want to make it so you can on ramp into any asset on osmosis. So you know, you want to buy OSMO or you want to buy Atom or you want to buy ETH on osmosis you should be able to like. What it will do is it will on ramp into stablecoins on osmosis but then it will route through the decks. It'll do a buy of osmo, let's say using that stablecoin on osmosis. But the idea is that all gets hidden away from the user. It feels like a single click operation. So really it'll be like, hey, you're buying any asset listed on osmosis with fiat.
**C** (18:54):
Yeah, that's great. And so that's one way to drive user growth is to make that on ramp and off ramp really easy. What about other functionalities? So someone moves their stable coins onto their, moves their fiat via an on ramp on osmosis, buys an asset in one atomic transaction, or at least that's what they see. And then what, is there other kinds of financial services that you can layer on top of that?
**A** (19:18):
Yeah, so there's like people building like sort of different utility is on top of osmosis right now. So there's one, there's a project for example called Phase. They're building a dollar cost averaging protocol on top of osmosis where you know, you can say like, hey, I want to buy $1,000 worth of Osmo, but I want to spread this by over, you know, a couple days. So that way I get a smoothed out price. But then they're doing like cool integrations where there's also a lending protocol that's building on top of osmosis called Mars. And so what they do is like let's say you have a thousand USDC that you're trying to like dollar cost average into OSMO over the next few days. What it'll do is while it's in that waiting period waiting to be, you know, swapped, it will lend it out on Mars. So it's like, oh, you're earning yield on the Money that you're like waiting to like be dollar cost average. So it's like, you know, there's this cool like composability when you have this like on chain composability where these products can all sort of like interoperate with each other that, that were, that will be able to get. So yeah, there's a lot more like financial services coming to Osmosis. You know, there's the lending protocol, there's a dollar cod averaging protocol, there's some, there's a couple of teams building perp style trading stuff on top of Osmosis right now as well.
**C** (20:41):
Let's think about the interchange here for a second because the design is different than what I think people think of with Ethereum. So you've got Ethereum, it's the settlement layer and then you've got a DAPP on top that has a ERC20 token like Uniswap and Uniswap sits on top of Ethereum. But Osmosis does not sit on top of Cosmos.
**A** (21:03):
Right.
**C** (21:03):
Cosmos Atom is one chain in the interchange and Osmosis is another. So Osmosis is like itself an open protocol. And that's when you say there are all these builders. This is not you and your team. These are other people who see Osmosis as a platform to build stuff on top of it.
**A** (21:26):
Right.
**C** (21:27):
Is that basically the way to think about it?
**A** (21:30):
Yep, exactly. That's exactly it. The one thing that maybe makes Osmosis a little bit different than a lot of the other layer 1 blockchains you probably are familiar with is that so we're a little bit more opinionated on how our ecosystem grows. So you have all these blockchains, you have Ethereum and Solana and all these things that are like generalized blockchains, like smart contracting systems. Anyone can go deploy something on whatever they want on top of it. But what ends up happening is when they're so permissionless and open, they get, you know, clogged with like the, with a few applications that end up eating up all the throughput. Yeah, with Osmosis we have, you know, OSMO holders via governance get to choose to deploy a contract on top of Osmosis. They have to go through a governance proposal that Osmo holders can vote whether or not they want this thing on the Osmosis blockchain. And the idea is to go, you know, we're trying to build this like the osmosis chain should feel like it's like very premium experience for users. Right. I often analogize it to Like Apple or like how, you know, to deploy an app onto the iOS app store. There's actually like a pretty stringent review process that you have to go through in order to. Because Apple wants to maintain a certain level of quality and premium feel to, you know, the whole user experience on their platform. That's kind of what we want osmosis to feel like as well. So, you know, it's a little bit more constrained there. So that what's interesting about this is this is a cool dichotomy where like the osmosis platform specific chain is sort of opinionated and maybe you know, a little bit permissioned almost by governance, but then the interchain is permissionless. And so, you know, it's like, oh, you can still compose with osmosis permissionlessly using ibc. It's just that osmosis is a little bit more opinionated about what goes on the chain itself, if that makes sense.
**C** (23:30):
Yeah, well that's interesting because I think a lot of people might, might question whether that's a violation of like the Web3 narrative in a way, which is, you know, you've got these credibly neutral platforms that allow you to, to build applications knowing that the platform's not going to change the terms of service on you or deep platform you, or ask you start, ask that you start paying them money, which is the all every other Web2 platform.
**A** (23:56):
Right.
**C** (23:57):
How do you see yourself reconciling with that reality?
**A** (24:02):
Yeah, exactly. Like I said, IBC is fully permissionless. We have these features called interchain accounts which is like everyone else in crypto is starting to think about cross chain communication today. Right. They have very basic token transfers across chains in, you know, the interchange ecosystem. We've been like, not just thinking about it, we've been building it for a long time and we're like working on cross chain composability right now. And so you can actually like, you know, let's say you have a contract on one chain, you can actually make contract calls to a, you know, a contract on a different chain or you have an account on one chain, let's say a multi sig on one chain. You can actually like do a swap on osmosis even without having, you know, to deploy your multisig on osmosis directly. And so we have this sort of like high level of composability over ibc. And so, you know, you could still get that sort of permissionless innovation over the IBC system.
**C** (25:07):
And so yeah, IBC you can think of as like that credibly neutral platform.
**A** (25:12):
Yeah.
**C** (25:12):
Right, interesting. So, speaking of platforms and changing tune from the Cosmos world, Ethereum is going to merge soon with the Beacon chain. Planned for, I think, September 10th to 20th, but it looks like it's September 12th. It's the closest estimate.
**A** (25:28):
That's a couple weeks away.
**C** (25:30):
I don't know when people are going to listen to this podcast. Could be after the fact. But what are your predictions for the merge?
**A** (25:37):
I'm pretty excited. You know, I think it's probably going to go pretty swimmingly and, you know, it's going to be exciting because at that point, over 50% of crypto market cap will be running on proof of stake rather than proof of work. And I think that's a pretty exciting shift. I actually originally got into working on Cosmos in Interchain because of proof of stake. I reached out to the original dev team originally because I was just fascinated with the Tendermint consensus protocol and I wanted to work on that. And then they explained to me this larger vision that they had and like, oh, wow, that's so cool. But so, you know, it's really exciting to see that, you know, we were sort of like one of the first.
**C** (26:20):
Two.
**A** (26:22):
You know, one of the first proof of stake systems to really go live and really push the fold on that. And so, and it's nice to see that, like, oh, wow, all these things are like starting to finally fall into place. Yeah. So, you know, I think that with Ethereum, I, I, I, I, I, I. I'm worried a little bit that maybe people think that it's going to be a way bigger change than it really is. I don't, it's not, you know, I don't think, especially the way that Ethereum's proof of stake system is designed, it's not going to actually give them, it's not going to like, oh, suddenly gas costs are going to like, you know, get cut by like a thousand X or something. And it's, you know, it's not gonna be like sunshine and rainbows, but I think it's gonna be a big, you know, it's going to be like one step in like a long process.
**C** (27:05):
Right. You mentioned something. You gave us a glimpse into how you got into this. And I actually want to go to that because we talked about this the last time, just like offline, which you said. I think you told me that in 2017 is when you first got interested in proof of stake, but you'd actually been introduced to this by a friend in high school or something like that. I Don't know. Can you just like tell us a little bit about the origin, the Santiago origin story? Because I actually think it's so great.
**A** (27:33):
How I got into crypto.
**C** (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, your superhero origin story.
**A** (27:38):
Yeah. What happened was it was in high school, one of my friends just like comes up to me and just says dogecoin just sponsored the Jamaican bobsled team. And like none of that sentence made any sense. I'm like, what? So obviously I go home that night and I look up what is dogecoin? And so I read it, I'm like, huh, that's kind of cool. And obviously it mentions bitcoin in the. Whatever I was reading. Maybe it was Wikipedia or something. And so I look up bitcoin, I'm like, oh wow, this is really interesting. And so that's actually the first time I ever got incepted with, heard about bitcoin. And then that was like the tail end of senior year of high school. And then I got to Berkeley as a freshman, you know, starry eyed, looking for clubs to join. And I heard there was this bitcoin club. And I was like, oh, I remember reading about that bitcoin thing. And so I joined that and that's, you know, the rest is history.
**C** (28:36):
Yeah, that's great. There's one more part to it though, right? Didn't you have a midterm that conflicted with a big crypto event, something like that? Oh yeah.
**A** (28:43):
So that, so that's like fast forward a little bit. So, you know, when I got to Berkeley, joined that bitcoin club. Didn't really know what was going on, but the people there seemed smart. So I kept sticking in and like trying to, trying to absorb. Started teaching a course on, on bitcoin. So you know, my recommendation for anyone, if you ever want to learn something, you sign up to teach it because then you're forced to learn it. And that's like, that's how I, that's kind of how I actually started learning about crypto or bitcoin, like and how it works technically. Yeah. And then from there at the time we were pretty bitcoin maxi, I'll admit. Maybe I, I think I'm maybe a little bit. Still a little bit bitcoin maxi. But you know, I wanted to learn a little bit more about Ethereum. And So summer of 2017, I started working at Consensus in order to just kind of learn a bit more about Ethereum. And that's where I got really interested in proof of stake, reached out to the Tenderman team, started working with them on. On that. And then my plan was to go back to school. And I was. My plan was like, work part time working with the Tenderman team, and then go to school at the same time. And it was a couple days, like, two or three days before classes started. The syllabus for one of my classes came out, and the midterm conflicted with devcon. And I really wanted to go to devcon and the classes taught by Nicholas Weaver. So if anyone knows. Knows him, he's like. He's like an infamous crypto hater, I guess. You know, very, very active on Twitter. And, you know, he's up there. He'll be in all the. He'll be in your comments. Oh, crypto's a scam. Blah, blah, blah. So when I told him I'm trying to skip it to go. I want to, like, move around the midterm to go to devcon. I don't know if it is because it was a devcon or not, but I like to think it was. He was like, no, absolutely not. You can't, and you can't do that. And then so I'm like, all right, I guess I'm gonna have to drop the class then, because, like, if I don't take the midterm, I'll fail the class. So I dropped them. I dropped the class, and I'm on the screen to, like, drop that class, and I'm like, you know what? It. I'm gonna drop all my classes. And so I just, like, dropped all of them because it kind of, like, realized that, like, hey, you know, school is gonna just keep getting in the way of, like, things. Yeah, you want to be learning and doing. Anyway, so. Yeah, so that's the story of how I dropped out. And I mean, to be honest, I ended up still living in Berkeley. I think that school, the most important thing it does is, like, the social atmosphere anyways, you know, I was really involved with, like, blockchain at Berkeley still for a while, even after I dropped out, which was like the club that we started at Berkeley and just. Yeah. So that's how I went full time in crypto.
**C** (31:31):
That's great. Well, I mean, we're not promoting dropping out of university here on the podcast, but for certain people, you know, with Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or maybe you, it's always better to pursue something if you've got a really good idea. So good on you. So that's. I think that's kind of it for today, Sunny. It was a great chat. Love catching up. Just again, remind our audience where they can follow you, how they can check out Osmosis. Let us know. Yeah, let us know.
**A** (32:00):
Yeah, so I'm. You can follow me on Twitter at. I'm at sunny A97 and you can follow Osmosis on Twitter. It's at Osmosis Zone. And then for the website, you know, if you want to play around with it, you can just go to Osmosis Zone and you'll, you'll need a, you'll need a wallet. So there's a wallet called Kepler. So, you know, you can't use MetaMask yet. So that's, so that's another one of the onboarding things that we want to do is make sure people can use different wallets. You know, a lot of users coming from Ethereum and stuff might have Metamask. So we'll get there where you can use MetaMask with osmosis as well. But for now, you're going to need to use the Kepler wallet and then you can start using the Osmosis site to start trading and doing Bridge over your eth. Bridge over your USD seed from Ethereum and start playing around with it.
**C** (32:50):
Yeah, great. Well, listen, full disclosure for those listening, you know, as with, you know, lots of different kinds of digital assets, I do own OSMO and Atom and I'm also a very happy user of the Osmosis platform. And I think UX UI is getting better in general across the crypto space. But I think Kepler at the Wallet and Osmosis, the Dex is really great. Like, it's just, you know, you don't need to be a techie person to, you know, fiddle around with this stuff. Not investment advice, but worth trying out if you, if you want to understand these Web3 tools a little bit better. All right, thanks, Sunny. Great to chat and we will speak again soon. We should do this maybe every six months instead of every year.
**A** (33:31):
Thanks a lot.
**C** (33:31):
Yeah, take care, man. Cheers.
**B** (33:37):
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