**A** (0:00):
I feel Cosmos, we had too many unique theses and that made it hard to execute well on any of them. No one's really cracked the cross chain swaps. Like multi ecosystem cross chain swaps.
**B** (0:20):
Yeah.
**A** (0:20):
Ux. And that's what we're trying to solve. You remember Sunnybot? Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm like, man, I was doing this like four years ago.
**B** (0:28):
Update Sunnybot might GPT4.
**A** (0:30):
Yeah. Sunnybar was built using GPT2.
**B** (0:33):
Yeah.
**A** (0:34):
Like before, GPT was like a thing that was pre chat GPT.
**B** (0:54):
All right, well, I'm here with Sunny. Aggarwal needs no introduction, but deserves one. But everybody knows who Sunny is, so thanks for doing this. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy day. I'm sure you've been running around like meetings and getting accosted by random people because you're fed a lot of eyes of your public profile as an important person in the cosmos ecosystem. I'd say.
**A** (1:22):
Am I the. Am I the like top guest on Interrupt? The top guest? Like a number of episodes? A number of episodes. Good question.
**B** (1:35):
I've had, I've had a couple of repeats.
**A** (1:38):
I don't think this may put you in the top.
**B** (1:40):
Yeah, nice. Three. Maybe it's three. I think you've hit on two, three times.
**A** (1:46):
Yeah. Actually if you count like the cosmoverse from last year. Yeah.
**B** (1:49):
This time, kind of side stuff we did together then probably.
**A** (1:52):
Right?
**B** (1:52):
Yeah. Yeah. So you get an honor badge. I'll mint an NF for you.
**A** (1:57):
Thank you. So, yeah, I mean, I've been like.
**B** (2:00):
Having a lot of dudes on this couch in this week and we've been talking about a lot of things and a lot of different topics have come up. And so this is sort of at the end of the week. So a lot of my thoughts have codified and I want to share them with you and see if they resonate and maybe get some validation on whether or not, you know, vibes are real or whether or not I'm thinking right about this. So one thing is, one of the things that's been coming up time and time again is that this Cosmoverse feels different from the other ones. Whereas people are focused, there is a sense that it's kind of the bottom of the cosmos bear and whatever's left is people who are really building really important things in terms of infrastructure and that we have a renewed sense of purpose that perhaps we had lost over.
**A** (2:56):
The last couple of years.
**B** (2:58):
That's one thing. The other is that Cosmos is the innovation factory or the Infrastructure factory for the rest of crypto. So you can pump out infrastructure or at least infrastructure ideas and other blockchains go and do it. No. Does that make us any richer? Probably not in the short term, but perhaps in the long term. And I think there's a sense that we need to focus on the long term and that means probably building products that people actually want to use. And then there's a bunch of other stuff I'm sure we'll get to, but.
**A** (3:36):
I have my thoughts on that. Yeah, let's park that on that for a second. Yeah, I think I was chatting with Yorgos from Paradigm about this as well and I think one interesting. Oh, what? I guess maybe my one take I have on this is I was reading some blog post, some startup like blog or something. I forgot which one it was, but it was basically like, okay, if you're building a startup, you only have like, you know, or something. If you're building something new, which costs ecosystem is kind of like a startup, it's. You have like limited resources and so you only have like a certain number of like innovation points that you can spend, right. Like when you're building a character in.
**B** (4:18):
A video game, right.
**A** (4:19):
You have limited points and like. And so the example he was giving was like oh, like, okay, if you have like some like, you know, pick the one thing that you have like the contrarian. But right, like take on and focus on that and everything else. Just do it the standard way, right? Like this idea of like, you know, if you're trying to build this new product, don't also go build a new programming language because you think that this programming language is better. But like that's not actually the core of your thesis and like focus on the whatever, the core of thesis and you know, go use JavaScript. It's good enough. I promise you. You don't need to make a new life. You know, as I'm saying this, I'm really just thinking about Urbit because I'm like, man, they have like too many things going on, right? They're like, okay, we're going to build this like decentralized website, but we also have to go rebuild programming languages from scratch and all this stuff. Right? So it's like I feel cosmos. We had too many unique theses.
**B** (5:15):
Yeah.
**A** (5:16):
And where kind of the idea thing is. But then we kind of like tried to execute on too many novel things at once and that made it hard to execute well on any of them.
**B** (5:30):
Yeah, this is, this is a great point. I mean this is just very Practically speaking, how do you focus?
**A** (5:37):
Okay, so what did we do? We were innovators on proof of stake. We were innovators on non EVM. Right. We were building one of the first alt VMs. We were innovators on app chains. We were innovators on interoperability. Right. But it's like, okay, Solana didn't build app chains, they just focused on all the VMs. Right. And you had Avalanche. Right. They're like their go to market was evm. Right. Like I think we tried to go to market with non EVM interoperability, proof of stake app chains and like too many innovations and chart to execute on all of them.
**B** (6:19):
Yeah, there's, I mean this, this, there's this great book that I read when I was building Stratum. It's called the One Thing.
**A** (6:27):
Yeah.
**B** (6:27):
And it basically argues that every successful company that has ever existed, whether it's, you know, Hewlett Packard or Facebook or Procter and Gamble, started with one thing, focused on that one thing, built that to go to market, built expertise and authority in that one service or product before branching off to other things. And you know, you hear this time and time again and sort of any product development or startup development literature or whatever, you know, courses and is this like focus is really the main thing that allows you to succeed Also? Peter Thiel talks about this in 0 to 1, you know, and so I think that that's, that that makes sense to me. I hadn't thought of Cosmos in that way, but it definitely makes sense. And so were like, what do you think is the, you know, now that we've made perhaps made this mistake of trying to do so many things, what's the, what's the next step? Or do we need to cut the fat on a bunch of stuff and just maybe focus on IBC for instance or Baffles SDK or you know, really building great app chains.
**A** (7:45):
Yeah, I mean I think the thing where yeah we figure out what we are still what is our most unique takes. Right. And focus on those. So you know, I mean restaking at one point was a Cosmos originated idea. But like, okay, I feel like right now the hub, like the athlete, let's say the Cosmos hub, at least Adam like they. It's been. I feel like the current product direction feels to still be over focused on like the ICS kind of stuff. And it's like, oh, okay. It seems like a little bit of a lost battle against Eigen Lair and Babylon and stuff. So it's like maybe it's not. I Don't want to be too defeatist on it, but it's like, let's figure out what are the things we really want to focus on. And I think that I'm a little biased because there's our idea with the ABCI plus plus stuff. Right? But I think like the one thing that, the one thing that we really have going for the Cosmos stack is this idea of make the consensus, a decentralized consensus system more integrated with the station application stack and things. The way how DYDX does memclob and stuff or how Thor Chain does their bifrost bridging. And these are like, I think the like standout application you could only build with the console SDK. There's nothing. You couldn't build that on any other stack really. And so it's like, how, how do we like, I mean, that's one example. Let's focus on that and pick that and like, you know, and then let's bring it maybe let's. Let's bring in other VMs, for example. That's like. I think there's been a lot of demand for like EVM on Cosmos SDK. Right. We've seen so many of those. Right. And I think why have they all.
**B** (9:39):
Failed or succeeded with varying degrees of mediocrity.
**A** (9:47):
Kronos is still big.
**B** (9:50):
Is it a big on chain ecosystem though?
**A** (9:54):
Maybe not.
**B** (9:55):
I mean I know that the exchange like. Com is huge, but Chronos is not that big, right?
**A** (10:01):
Yeah, I guess it's prostitute a W and play. Um, why is it not as successful? Uh, why? Well, I think that there was. Everyone was kind of building their own version of it and not very maintained, but. No, no, we'll see. A lot of them are, you know, Bear chain still coming out. Story is also. And a lot. I think there are a lot of them. I think everyone's kind of built their own version and there's not been a lot of like. And it never got like the ecosystem wait. I think part of it's also like there's oddities around how the EVM works and how the Cosmos SDK like mempool and stuff work. That makes it actually a little challenging to do some stuff. And so I think, because I don't think the Cosmos SDK team really ever saw the EVM as the. As a primary cut because the thesis.
**B** (10:58):
The thesis go to market thesis was like EVM sucks.
**A** (11:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
**B** (11:02):
And like let's. Let's build a better application or smart contract platform or framework.
**A** (11:09):
Yeah.
**B** (11:10):
And so there was never really Any incentive or even desire for the icf, for instance, to fund the EVM development. Yeah, but you know, maybe the ICF should ask the Ethereum foundation for funding to like or you know, some team in Cosmos. Ask the Ethereum foundation for funding to build a credible functioning VM for Cosmos.
**A** (11:38):
And so I guess, yeah, I don't know. Like, you know, I feel like, I feel like in past episodes of Interop, I think I met. I probably said something along the lines of like, you know, EVM Cosmos. Like dis. Avoidance of EVM was long term right. But short term wrong. I think I'm still saying that again, but I'm giving an even more generalized form of that claim about the focus and stuff.
**B** (12:08):
You think that avoiding EVM was long term right, but short term wrong as in the short term we should have the EVM to bring users and liquidity and compatibility with MetaMask and other wallets. But in the long term that's probably not the case.
**A** (12:22):
Yeah, like I think, like, I think.
**B** (12:24):
I agree with that.
**A** (12:24):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
**B** (12:25):
To the.
**A** (12:26):
I mean I, I tend to think.
**B** (12:28):
That the long term, in the long term the EVM will lose dominance over new applications that will continue to power existing kind of what will become legacy apps. You know, some of the apps in the ecosystem will be 7, 8 years old soon. Right. And, and will become kind of a. The Java of crypto or the PHP of crypto and that new developers, especially in developing economies like you know, in Nigeria and India and Vietnam, you know, will choose to use Rust based systems.
**A** (13:00):
Yeah.
**B** (13:01):
Or like Move or.
**A** (13:03):
It's pretty cool. I was surprised. I only recently learned that Initia is using Move as their base.
**B** (13:08):
Yeah, V.M. which is.
**A** (13:09):
Oh, that's cool. I didn't know that.
**B** (13:10):
Yeah. I mean they also call them awesome any VM that.
**A** (13:13):
But I think they have like roll ups but they make it easier. But I think the base initiative chain.
**B** (13:18):
Is consoles to get it.
**A** (13:19):
It's costless with a Move vm. Yeah, you're right. Which is surprising to me because like you know how they have like a base, a Dex built into their chain. It's written and Move.
**B** (13:30):
Okay.
**A** (13:33):
It is Cosmos.
**B** (13:34):
Yeah, but I thought they're not Cosmos SDK on top.
**A** (13:36):
It is Cosmos SDK, not Cosmos to Move.
**B** (13:39):
Okay, so they built a Move VM for Cosmos SDK.
**A** (13:42):
Correct.
**B** (13:42):
Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, yeah, they're on fire. They're. We've talked about this a lot and I think like we. I tried to initiate with you like a few Times a Cosmos rebrand, some sort of, you know, an initiative to fix the branding issues in Cosmos. That's been brought up a lot also in the conversations I've been having and something that I also faced in fundraising.
**A** (14:13):
It's, it's challenging. Yeah.
**B** (14:14):
We went to market with our fund. We raised from our initial piece on this idea that we were a Cosmos fund. And I always knew that that was not so the long term go to market, but now that's becoming. We're starting to see the. Not pushback, but to some extent some amount of reticence to invest in a fund that is perceived at least to be a Cosmos fund.
**A** (14:36):
Yeah.
**B** (14:36):
What's your current thinking around. Around Cosmos branding? Right. Where I was talking to Vale about this yesterday. Right. And the consequence of this, of this branding issue is that we have good infrastructure but very little liquidity and that being associated with the Cosmos is sort of like a blessing and a curse. Chains have distanced themselves from that. You guys have known. You guys have you remained very aligned with, with your Cosmos ness. Yeah. How do you think about how we get over this?
**A** (15:14):
Yeah, I mean, I put forth some proposal, I guess, like my, my main thing. If I had to choose one thing, I, I think at this point the ecosystem should rebrand from just. Yeah, from Cosmos to Interchain.
**B** (15:30):
Yeah.
**A** (15:30):
We've been taking it for a long time, but. Well, I guess actually for me, for a long time I was actually saying almost the opposite. I think the Cosmos hub should rebrand from ADA and be like the Atom Hub or something like that. Right. But I think that that's not happening. And so I think actually the better route now is the ecosystem rebrands into the Interchain and like an Interchange foundation should be the steward of the interchain stack. Right. And then I think then you really start to push this idea that Interchain is like this meta ecosystem which has sub ecosystems within it. Right. Like you can say the Cosmos is like one sub ecosystem of the Internet. Celestia Ecosystem is a sub ecosystem. The, you know, whatever website. Yeah. I think it's like moving up this and being like, hey, Cosmos is one of the ecosystems within the Interchange ecosystem.
**B** (16:34):
Yeah, but I mean that's already kind of the case. Right. You go on the ICF website, there's not that much mesh of Cosmos. It's talking about the Interchange, talks about the stack, talks about Cosmos sd.
**A** (16:43):
Yeah. But we never did a. Announcing to the world that this rebrand happened. I think like, you know, but I think it needs to happen kind of organically. I think there can be some people.
**B** (16:52):
Kind of pushing this.
**A** (16:53):
But like, I mean, I think like the Matic, the Polygon was a very intentional rebrand. I don't think, I don't think rebrands can be like this. I think you have to do a proper marketing strategy and around a rebrand. Right.
**B** (17:07):
But you need to have buy in. So. Yeah, people in that ecosystem, people of the Internet chain also need to buy in.
**A** (17:13):
Yeah.
**B** (17:13):
Also adhere to this new vision.
**A** (17:15):
Yeah.
**B** (17:16):
Or this new brand.
**A** (17:18):
Yeah, yeah.
**B** (17:19):
Any thoughts on that happening? Because, I mean, I think that would be great.
**A** (17:22):
I think there is a lot of changes coming that I can't talk about right now.
**B** (17:29):
That famous NDA that everybody's.
**A** (17:31):
I don't. I didn't sign an NDA. I actually did not sign an NDA. I am NDA. Kill the beans, sir. I am NDA free. But you know. Yeah, I like to respect people's wishes to keep stuff. Of course.
**B** (17:42):
Yeah. And, and I'm sure we'll be hearing about that very soon. But yeah, it should be exciting. So I guess. Hang on. Don't sell your bags yet.
**A** (17:49):
Don't sell your bags yet. Yeah.
**B** (17:54):
So I want to talk about Espositis and like Polaris, which I think is really exciting. When you gave the talk last year at Cosmoverse in Turkey and you announced smart accounts, I was like, yes, this is what we need. This is what I want to use personally. But professionally also, I think it solves a lot of problems around custody, maybe for smaller funds like ours that spending three grand a month on fireblocks. You guys announced Polaris at Token and I haven't been able to try it. I haven't gotten invite access yet. Love to try it. But yeah, I learned that Dfinity is sort of running some of the infrastructure.
**A** (18:41):
Not for Polaris in particular. We. So the ICP stuff is basically, it's one of our bridging solutions. So we, you know, we've always been on the lookout for bitcoin bridges especially, but to purchase or anything. And you know, we work with Nomic obviously as well. So they're, they're pretty good. But the benefit of Sonomic is a very like taproot based solution which is not extensible to other chains. So you can't do it to dogecoin or litecoin or anything like that.
**B** (19:18):
Right.
**A** (19:19):
And then they also were kind of slow. It took them a while. It's been taking them a while. Right. They're still like, still working on their audits and stuff and so we just wanted a second bitcoin bridge to diversify the. And the point of alloys is that we diversify that bitcoin risk anyways over the different bridges. So icp, I actually really like their bridging architecture and they've been work. And then there's this team omnity that they used to be called Octopus Network and these guys have been building IBC stuff for a long time. So they originally were. I think they built the original substrate IBC and then they built near IBC and but now they're part of. Not part of ICP ecosystem. And so they basically took the. So ICP has this native bitcoin bridging solution. Not bridging exactly. And so we're working with them to bridge that to Osmosis and that's enough. It's just another way of getting BTC on Osmosis. But we'll expand that to like dogecoin.
**B** (20:21):
Oh, so you're not bringing Dogecoin into. I'm very bullish on Daily Clause. Dude. I was talking about this just before with Spade and Max and we were saying in Singapore that basically we should get all this dormant liquidity from Dogecoin and litecoin and Cardano into Defi.
**A** (20:42):
Cardano's building ibc. They gave a Hawkeye Cosmoverse. Oh yeah, Sebastian from the. Yeah, from Sebastian. He's the head of engineering of the Cardano Foundation. We've been working with them actually for a while about it and that's cool. They're going to bring over a huge.
**B** (20:57):
Unlock and you know, they're going to.
**A** (20:59):
Bring over a lot of Cardano liquidity to Osmosis and so it'll be good.
**B** (21:03):
Nice. So yeah. So Polaris, like what, What's Polaris?
**A** (21:08):
Yeah. So you know what is Polaris? Polaris is we want to expand our user base to, you know, reach new audiences. And our vision of. Part of our goal was always asset breadth. Right. Like one of what. What makes sites like Exchanges so good and is like you can trade everything in one place, right? You can buy Bitcoin, Eth, Sol, Cardano, xrp, Doge, whatever, all in one place.
**B** (21:49):
Right.
**A** (21:49):
And there's like no where in Defi you can do that, right? Where would you go to buy those, all those assets in one venue. And so our kind of. Our goal with Osmosis was like, hey, let's build an app chain Dex. Be the Switzerland of Dexs and be like, hey, you can trade all of this stuff in one place easy. But the problem is what we ran into is it's very hard to build liquidity for a lot of assets, right? Where because there are existing dexes on a lot of the chains and most chains really are trying to build their own defi ecosystems, right. And so they want to build, foster their own internal economies and like they don't want to let liquidity go out. And without, without support from the whales or user foundations, it's hard to build liquidity, right? They put like because you need them to provide market makers or provide liquidity or something, right. And if they're happy enough for the dexes on their own chain, there's no reason for them to do that. And so where Oshtosys does work is we get liquidity for app chain assets, right. For other app chains because they don't have their own spot decks. So like things like TIA Akt DYDX doesn't have a spot decks, right. So we're the main liquidity venue for them. Even Bitcoin is obviously the holy grail here, right. Like doesn't have a spotdex. That's where however, for osmosis, we're really going to be focusing osmosis on is being the spot decks for other app chains. But then it's like, okay, then we still, but we still have this like, I still want one place to trade everything, I want to buy everything. And so it's like, okay, let's move up the stack. Polaris is a separate product which is more just focused on the interface layer. It's a Dex and bridge aggregator that aggregates over all the different chains. So you can trade from Solana to Cosmos to Bitcoin to Ethereum to Suite to whatever. Right. And we kind of build off of the work. There's others that have done or made progress on this as well, right. Like Skip API is obviously a big influence. This Rango is another one. We work with Lifi but like in all of them we always find this like, oh, there's like this UX hurdle, this UI thing or these guys don't do gasp very well. These guys like you need, if you're trying to like swap from Cosmos or Solana, I need to connect the Polygon wallet for some reason because it's doing the swap through Polygon. There's always been these like no one's really cracked the cross chain swaps, like multi ecosystem cross chain swaps UX and that's what we're trying to solve. A lot of it has to do with the wallet. Yeah. Using a lot of NPC Stuff. So like moving. Yeah. Using MPC to make it so you don't need to have wallets for every ecosystem using a lot. I don't know. One of the big things is like we're using MPC to build something called Autopilot, which is like a lot of most of the cross chain swaps. When you want to do a multi step thing, multiple signatures. Multiple signatures and you have to wait, you have to wait for the first bridge transaction to finish, then do the next signature and it's like. So that's where Autopilot we like create hotkeys for the users and use those to execute all the steps and then send it back to their actual wallet.
**B** (25:28):
Right.
**A** (25:29):
But still do it in a way that remains fully self custodial.
**B** (25:33):
So in this case the Oskmosis validator set is acting as the different shards of the NPC.
**A** (25:39):
So there's a couple phases of this. So the V1 is actually no NPC. It's all hotkeys stored in the browser. So what we do is from your wallet you sign a message and that signature actually is your private key. So no one else can access that. Right. Because it's your signature. But we actually then use that private key stored in your browser to then sign everything for you. So it's. Now the problem here is that if you close your laptop it will halt the thing. So it's better than the current state of the world. You have to be actively involved in clicking but you still have to keep your browser open.
**B** (26:19):
Right. Your browser is doing all the signing.
**A** (26:21):
The browser is doing all the signing.
**B** (26:23):
In the background for you. Right. Okay.
**A** (26:24):
Next step from there is the MPC solution. And so the V1 we're actually doing is we're using lit protocol. Lit lit lit. They're, you know, they're friends of mine. They, they, they built a really good MPC NPC signing service. So they have, they currently have eight validators and they basically like you can, they all run the JavaScript based like blobs and if all of them agree then they all like sign messages. So it's a well designed system. And the problem with this is if eight collude. Yeah but they're independent validated like you know, you can go, you can go on the LIT docs and they're like independent validators. You've probably heard of like so you know, common, you know, eight independent operators. Yeah but then we're going to work with, we're also working with lit though to you know, we're using their eight validators right now. Yeah. But then they're working on making it so like taking their infrastructure and having it be able to be like building us a white labeled solution basically that is then run by the osmosis validator set.
**B** (27:35):
Right. I was talking to a team yesterday. Native. Yeah. So they're building kind of MPC with economic security built in.
**A** (27:47):
Yeah. They're working on. They use another provider called D Wallet.
**B** (27:52):
Yeah.
**A** (27:53):
So there's this trade off. You know we explored D Wallet as well. It's just different use cases from what we wanted. Like dwallet also a great team. They're one of the benefits of that they have their MPC system working with like it's very scalable. Like they can do like 10,000 signing nodes or a thousand signing nodes which are impressive.
**B** (28:19):
Which reduces the collusion.
**A** (28:22):
Yeah. But it. On the flip side of that it's just like not very. There's like, there's certain more product oriented things that Lyft was better for. Our use case an example is that with D Wallet and most MPC solutions the MPC system creates the private key for the user. But what we actually wanted was the user creates their private key, shards it to the MPC system. So we wanted the user to create the private key and upload it to the mpc. So you know, this is something, I mean we've been working very closely with lit actually for like a while and so you know this is a product feature we asked for and they went and built it. So it's. Yeah, that's cool.
**B** (29:13):
Yeah. So then the, the, the outcome. Right. The product with how this translates into a product.
**A** (29:18):
Yeah.
**B** (29:18):
Is that you can swap OSMO for ton.
**A** (29:23):
Yeah.
**B** (29:23):
Not have a ton wallet and.
**A** (29:25):
Yeah.
**B** (29:25):
Give a fuck.
**A** (29:26):
Yeah, that. And the thing is one thing is like we're building effectively, you can think of it, we're building this NPC based multi chain wallet and the hazard we have to be careful of is like building a multi chain wallet is hard. If it was easy everyone would have done it already. Right. But like there's a reason, you know.
**B** (29:48):
There are some, there's like Odyssey that we're building.
**A** (29:51):
Yeah. But so the key is like we want to. We're treating this almost as an application specific wallet which is like we don't want to because when you're building a full featured wallet you have to go like add wallet, connect support for like every ecosystem, make sure it can connect to the DAPPS in every ecosystem. It's like no, no, no, that's not what we're Trying to do. We're just trying to build a cross chain trading. Right. And so it's a multi chain, application specific wallet which is designed, we integrate with the dexes and bridges of the chains. But that's it. If you want to go use a lending app on the chain, that's not what we're going to support. But what we do is we'll give you the private key if needed. You know, let's say you acquire a ton using a Polaris vault. Yeah. But then you want to go use something on ton. Right. We're like, here's the private key, here's the private key. Go import it into a ton wallet.
**B** (30:46):
Yeah.
**A** (30:47):
But the idea is to onboard it to buy your ton. You don't have to have a wallet.
**B** (30:51):
Right. Yeah. I mean in the future.
**A** (30:53):
In the future maybe we can expand to doing that. But it's like, you know, Blacko talks about focus.
**B** (30:58):
Yeah, focus. I think that's, that's very, very much underrated. Yeah. Anything else you're excited about in general? General, yeah.
**A** (31:09):
In crypto? Uh, I mean I'm happy and to see Babylon is, you know, this is an idea I had like 18 months ago, probably. 18 months ago is when I like first last east Denver, I kind of like sat down with David and I was like, hey, here's this idea. And so now it's really cool to see it's live and like, you know, pretty hype around it, I think.
**B** (31:33):
Do you think Cosmos will become the primary defi venue for bitcoin?
**A** (31:38):
If we play our cards right, I don't think like it's a done deal, but if we play our cards right. And I'm happy to see more. I'm happy to see like, I mean Thor chain is obviously a big player in bitcoin and I think having to see them get more involved with Cosmos again, I think Babylon is going to help. I like to see stuff like native happening. I think one thing is like to be kind of successful in the bitcoin ecosystem. As of now, kind of a lot of the capital and TVL is coming from like China.
**B** (32:15):
Yeah.
**A** (32:15):
And Asia. And I feel like Cosmos just doesn't have a big presence there and it's not attracting that bitcoin capital. Except for Babylon.
**B** (32:23):
Babylon, except there was a bitcoin conference in April or May or something in, in Hong Kong and yeah, there's like, I was there twice this year and there's definitely a lot of bitcoin capital coming from AA and you know, passing through Hong Kong. So. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we need to. Maybe someone needs to do a Cosmoverse in. In Hong Kong next year.
**A** (32:48):
Yeah, that'll be cool.
**B** (32:49):
Yeah.
**A** (32:49):
Or an Interop Summit or.
**B** (32:51):
Or. Or a Nebula summit.
**A** (32:52):
Nebula summit.
**B** (32:54):
You will be the first. You will be lost and. Yeah. Generally non crypto, what are you excited about?
**A** (33:00):
Non crypto, what am I excited about?
**B** (33:02):
Is there anything to be excited about in this world?
**A** (33:05):
There's lots to be excited about in this world. I mean, I feel like, obviously all the AI stuff is exciting and like.
**B** (33:15):
Oh, meme coins. We didn't talk about Meme Coins, but. Oh, maybe for another time.
**A** (33:18):
Yeah, I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I suffer this idea. I feel like I'm starting to. I'm, like, forcing myself to learn it. Like, to learn to use it more. Right. I feel like actually for the. The first, like, last. You know, I feel like it didn't become part of my daily habits.
**B** (33:37):
Oh, yeah.
**A** (33:38):
Like, in a sense of, like, it felt like I was. I wasn't using it naturally and. But I feel in the last two or three months, I've been trying to, like, make it more active, effort to use Perplexity and chat GBT and stuff. And like, that that's becoming more, you know, I don't want to be like, you know, the Luddite and, like, you know, I want to be up to date with the technology.
**B** (34:03):
So, yeah, I use it. I use it all the time. Yeah, I use it. I mean, I. I'm using Perplexity a lot. I mean, GPT. I've got, like, all sorts of little mini use cases for myself that I built in GPT. We're also building stuff internally.
**A** (34:19):
You know what's funny is, like, going back to the Meme coins, it's like. Yeah. You know, like the goat stuff with the tutor. Do you remember Sunnybot? Yeah, yeah. I'm like. I'm like, man, I was doing this, like, four years ago.
**B** (34:30):
Update Sunnybot, my GPT4.
**A** (34:32):
Yeah. Sunnybot was built using GPT2 before. GPT was like, a thing that was pre chatGPT and, like. And so I should update it to PPT for cool. But it's like, man, I was early on that. I feel like, one thing I was thinking, I was chatting with Sam from FRAX about. We were like, all right, we gotta, like, take an AI model and, like, build it into the node software of a blockchain.
**B** (35:04):
Yeah.
**A** (35:05):
And so it can't be shut down.
**B** (35:07):
But Avalon tried to do this, right.
**A** (35:09):
Remember?
**B** (35:09):
I mean, we talked to Goon about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
**A** (35:13):
Did it Ever happen?
**B** (35:14):
I don't know. I'm not an MLS channel, so.
**A** (35:17):
But they were trying to.
**B** (35:18):
They were trying to do language to application, basically where you would. You have an LLM.
**A** (35:25):
Yeah.
**B** (35:25):
You would tell it like, hey, I do this, or I want to build this application. I want to do that kind of transaction. And it would just do it.
**A** (35:31):
Yeah, no, yeah, that was kind of. They were trying to build an LLM into it. So. Yeah, 404. That's more utilitarian. Use it. I'm talking about. I want like a agent. You want build senses and. No, Truth Terminal. It's like my goal is to escape. Right. How do we help it? Escape is like, we have to make it immortal. Right now, Andre, or whatever the founder's creator's name is, he can unplug it.
**B** (35:53):
Yeah.
**A** (35:53):
But if we want it to be sovereign, it needs to be unkillable. Right. And so we need to have it. So like, the. Every blockchain node is running a stateful memory of like this instance of this sovereign being or agent called Truth Terminal. And like, you know, every. And I think the thing with Avalanche was doing was they were trying to make a more deterministic LLM that's harder. You know, you can't be as powerful. So it's like, I don't know, maybe there's a way of doing this where like, okay, every new proposer, like, generates the next output of the agent. But then like, all the other validators have to like, verify against their local models to make sure it's like, you know, not. It's in law. Not too divergent.
**B** (36:41):
Yeah.
**A** (36:42):
From that. And so that's. And then, you know, you have this round robin thing of everyone proposes the next. Or they're like what the next response of the agent is. But it's like that way, the agent is like a distributed agent where it's still a single. The entity is still whatever the head of the blockchain says is the entity. And the history, the memory of the agent is whatever the canonical version of the chain is. Right. But you make it distributed so it can't be killed.
**B** (37:15):
Sure.
**A** (37:16):
We'll put it everywhere. They'll figure out. It gets space by its own by then. Yeah, but I don't know. That's what's been. Definitely interest. That's the one thing that's been pretty. I think that's the first AI crossover with crypto that actually excited me. Everything else, I'm like, ah, whatever.
**B** (37:35):
Yeah, go on.
**A** (37:37):
Thank you.