**A** (00:12):
All right, well, good morning, good evening, as the case may be. And before I introduce our esteemed guest here, Sunny Ackerwal, let me first give a quick shout out to our sponsors, Omniflix Media Network, which is launching the Flix 2 testnet, their first test net with NFTs on it after the success of Flix 1, which was, I think the largest tender bit network ever. Sunny, correct me if I'm wrong on that, with around 750 nodes, which is extremely impressive. Yeah, they're going to be following that up with Flix too. Very exciting. Please go check out blog.omniflix.network for more information there. And also I would be remiss if I could not Samoye Finance, here at Samoya Finance, we're going to be launching, we are the easiest way to add liquidity to you to soft V3. And we're going to be launching our mainnet Cosmos chain here this week. Very exciting. So please stay tuned for a lot more announcements there as we get up to launching the sellers which are going to be sort of managed by the som. So very exciting there. And today we have Sunny Agarwal, none other than from Osmosis. So, Sunny, just do you mind giving the folks a quick introduction and introducing yourself?
**B** (01:28):
Yeah, sure. Hey, guys, My name is Sunny. I've been working in the Cosmos ecosystem for close to four years now. I spent a while at Tendermint doing a lot of just core development stuff on mostly on the Cosmos SDK and just research and proof of stake and things like that, launched the Cosmos Hub. And then I left the Tendermint company basically about a month, about a year ago and started just exploring different things. Was watching Defi Summer happening on Ethereum and we're like, how do we bring that to Cosmos? And so that's sort of how one of the things that inspired Osmosis, we're like, all right, let's just go. We've been talking about defi on Cosmos for a while. Let's just go start building it.
**A** (02:16):
I mean, that would be the gore, the great organizational restructuring. So, you know, I think Sunny, you and I met back in BERKELEY Back in 2018, right when I started. But you had already been working on Cosmos for a while. And one of the coolest things about working on Cosmos at Berkeley was all the blockchain at Berkeley, folks. You are one of a number of them, I think. Federico. And was Marco there too?
**B** (02:40):
Or not Marco, but not Marco. Yeah. And Colin.
**A** (02:45):
Josh. Joshua or no, Jeremiah.
**B** (02:49):
Jeremiah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
**A** (02:52):
Quite Quite a few Cosmos folks came out of Blockchain at Berkeley, which is really, really cool.
**B** (02:58):
Yeah, it was cool. I mean, that office that we had was really nice because it was, like, you know, right next to the Berkeley campus, and it sort of became like a sort of hangout spot for blockchain Berkeley people. And then we were able to, like, slowly pick at them as, like, know when they would come by.
**A** (03:12):
Oh, yeah, you used to do white paper reading sessions there on Thursdays.
**B** (03:16):
Y. Yeah.
**A** (03:17):
What were. What were some of your favorite white papers you did during that time? Do you remember any of them? Like, that was, like, when Avalanche white paper was coming out and stuff like that.
**B** (03:27):
Yeah, I mean, so we obviously. I would try to get everyone to read the tenement white paper and stuff and spend a lot of time trying to explain Tendermint to everyone. A lot of, like, Web of Trust stuff that I always found really interesting. That was always. That's always been one of my passions. Dave would try to, like, teach people about, like, privacy and snarks and stuff. Yeah, I mean, we had so many of those that it's like, yeah, it was probably a great learning experience for everyone.
**A** (03:56):
They were really cool. I only sat in one of those, but it was. I just remember being a cool crew. And that's where you and Dave founded seca, which is one of the largest validators in Cosmos, right?
**B** (04:08):
Yeah. So as the test sets were coming, I think for all of us, we were like, all right, we're building proof of stake. We got a dog food, our own tech, and it's hard to build stuff and not know what the validators are doing. And so the best way to do it was just start running something on the test nets and stuff. And then when mainnet came around, like, all right, let's just keep running these.
**A** (04:33):
I remember everyone at Tendermint was running validators because of this exact thing, and everyone was doing it slightly differently, and no one ever really wanted to fully disclose their setup. They were all just like, I'm running over here and I'm doing this. I remember you guys were running at the UC Data center. Are you guys still in the Berkeley data Center?
**B** (04:54):
Yep, we are, Sonny.
**A** (04:57):
That's a good deal there. Nice. Well, the first topic I wanted to talk about was the history of Dexes and Cosmos. And I think you were probably the first person to tell me this, but Jay actually invented Tendermint because he lost money in the Mt. Gox hack and wanted to build a decentralized exchange. When I started there, we didn't even have the Hub launch, nothing was really going on. You were already building Dex prototypes at that point, I think. Right.
**B** (05:24):
Or at least designing some. But yeah, he wanted to create one called for to Knox, because there's going to be a more secure version of Mount Gox.
**A** (05:34):
That name still could be used. That would be a fantastic Dex name. Good branding there.
**B** (05:41):
And yeah, so, I mean, he. And so he was like, he was really worried about this idea of, like, chains being, like, double spending on an exchange. And so that sort of was one of the original impetuses for. For figuring out how to create a safety favoring protocol, which eventually led to the creation of Tendermint.
**A** (06:00):
Yeah. Kind of wild that Dexes have ended up becoming this huge application, and that was why we created it. So you worked on that. You worked on a couple of prototypes throughout your time there. And during that sort of gore period, we all went our separate ways. And I think you fell in kind of working with the Chain Abscess team, which I will say a great choice because they do the best front end in the ecosystem. And you guys started working on Osmosis, and I think you told me it was at a hackathon that you guys kind of started with that. Right.
**B** (06:37):
So I wasn't. So, I mean. Yeah. So, like, talk about, like, the history of how osmosis started, and if you want to talk about the history of Dexes at Tendermin, we can also talk about that.
**A** (06:46):
Um, I mean, it's fun, but, you know, the history of how osmosis started is definitely way more fun. So, yeah, yeah.
**B** (06:54):
I mean, so we. For Osmosis, what happened was after we left, I was, you know, I was doing, like, random stuff for a little bit, trying to figure, like, some education stuff and whatnot. But then eventually it's like, all right, you were working.
**A** (07:08):
Speaking of Web of Trust, you were also, like, working on a Web of Trust paper for a little while too, which I was really excited about because, like, I worked at Blockstack and, like, I'd love to see identity stuff and like, like, would have loved to have seen a Web of Trust implementation.
**B** (07:20):
Yeah, I think the Web of Trust stuff is, like, one day I want to get back to it. If I wasn't working on Osmosis, that's what I'd be working on right now. But so I was just going different things. And then Dave and I were like, all right, let's start building something. And we were like, all right, let's focus on privacy. And I think that's sort of the main thing that we want to do and then different types of privacy, like fully on like on chain privacy. The one that kind of really stuck with when we talked to people is this idea that we had called mempool privacy. Because what that would do is I would solve front running because if you can't read anything that's in the mempool then no one can front run. And so we started building out a solution for this called threshold encryption. And we spent most of our fall basically designing that mechanism because there was like, you know, it sounds somewhat simple actually, but it turns out there's like edge cases and stuff you have to solve for. So we were busy doing that.
**A** (08:15):
Those nasty edge cases.
**B** (08:17):
Oh yeah. And you know, as we go forward we're probably gonna find more and more. But you know, and so we were so we were like very deep in that side and just like. And while we were building it we, we were very aware that hey, this is a feature, not a product yet. And it's like. But we were like, all right, we're developing and we're like, all right, we'll figure out what the feature is here. It's going to be are we going to go build a like tendermint based roll ups for Ethereum? Are we going to go build some sort of like something more like Lazy Ledger where it's like. Or now Celestia where it's like, oh, it'll do censorship resistance for other chains. So we're like trying to figure out what the product would be or do we go launch our own Dex? And then meanwhile off on literally the other side of the world in Korea, Tony, who is one of the co founders of chain APSystems at the Cosmos hack at I think in November, he built this thing called yeah, he built the MVP of Osmosis where him and a couple other folks built like this mvp. They put, they basically re implemented the Balancer white paper onto the Cosmos SDK and I believe they won that hackathon. Yeah. And so, so then they reached Josh and Tony, then like sort of reached out to us and were like, hey, how do we like, you know, would you guys be interested in helping us on this? You know, I think we have like this mvp, but I think you know, having you have combining forces, we can really like, you know, take this like make this the next thing in Cosmos. And so we're like, oh, this is amazing because this is like, this is what, this is going to be the way to ship. This is the, this is the go to market for our threshold encryption. Work. So we eventually, you know, it started off more. We were just helping the Chain Appsys team work on it. And then eventually it just got more and more involved to the point that we basically merged teams. And so this all happened in December, January, and then we were working on it, building out the main Osmosis code base. It doesn't have any of that threshold encryption stuff yet because there's all sorts of things we have to do in parallel with that ABCI plus plus and improvements to Tendermint and stuff to make that world work. But so we're like, all right, let's bring some decks to market. And then once we. And there's a need for like solving liquidity in Cosmos right now. And so we're like, all right.
**A** (10:39):
I mean, you sunny, you, you solved that. Like, that's like, yeah, I think there's a long way to go.
**B** (10:46):
Like, I tried to walk my mom how to buy like Osmo the other day and it was like crypto UX is just so much like not even on the osmosis side alone. Even like Coinbase is hard for like.
**A** (10:59):
Oh yeah.
**B** (11:00):
And it's like.
**A** (11:01):
Well, I think part of that is because it's hard for people to understand private keys. By the way, my mom claimed her airdrop and has already done swaps and provided liquidity on Osmosis. She loves it.
**B** (11:11):
Nice. Awesome. Yeah. So now we have this like base platform and the idea is to keep building more things on top of it, more defi primitive, more privacy stuff, more security. Also as a base ground to start building out IBC UX stuff, all sorts of cool things.
**A** (11:35):
One of the things that as you're talking about that and how Osmosis is really going to be a go to market for threshold encryption and some of this more advanced cryptography and some of these really cool next generation ideas. I think the path that you're taking is very much the Cosmos path. The way that I understand it, where you sort of like ship, you get a product out, it might not have any of the features that you really want, but you have to build that base. You have to build the engineering skill, you have to build the business, you have to build the relationships with other folks in the industry to kind of walk before you can run. And instead of kind of going out to VCs and raising that money, you did it on chain, which is like very, very crypto native. And you know, another one of your blockchain at Berkeley folks, Chris goes like, is kind of taking a different approach, but also similar ideas. With Amora in sort of shipping encryption. But he's going for more of a, you know, go raise the money, be in stealth for a while, kind of like work slowly and like ship it a complete platform. And you know, actually working with them.
**B** (12:38):
A lot on the cryptography side. So we're like the threshold encryption stuff that we're doing, we're actually like working on the same.
**A** (12:44):
I mean that's, that's awesome. And, and they do incredible work. But I just think it's very interesting that these two strategies are like, you know, they keep cropping up again and again and like. Yeah. Anyway, I'm very partial to the ship and iterate strategy. So like I always like seeing people take that and that's one of the things I've always really admired about osmosis.
**B** (13:04):
Thank you. Yeah. I mean on the other hand, you know, it does make like development a little bit harder because it's like, all right, now you want to not what.
**A** (13:12):
Makes it way harder.
**B** (13:14):
All right, now we're dealing with like public market things at the same time as like trying to deliver like build the next things as well. So definitely. But at the same time it's definitely way more motivating to be building once you have like something out of the market. Cause you're like, oh wow. Users act. I will say my, like I, I just became much more excited about it as well. Like yeah, like after we launched it was like oh wow, like users want to use this and like.
**A** (13:42):
Yeah, I mean you guys built, you're talking about user experience and how terrible crypto UX is. You guys have built something that has better UX than most things out there in crypto and from the ground up. You know, the, the chain Access team with Kepler, the, the Tendermint team and the Cosmos team. All the work we've done over the year to make these five second transactions and instant finality a real thing. And then you know, just the ease of use on the decks as well. Like those are like, all of that comes together to make one of the easiest to use decentralized exchange experiences ever. And like also the steps you guys have made on IBC ux, which is a topic I want to cover a little bit later in the call. Like those are huge and it makes a massive difference for end users.
**B** (14:24):
I mean it helps a lot. That IBC protocol makes it a lot easier where like, you know, I think a lot of the issue on like other people building Bridge UX is it's like, oh, you got to deal with like reorgs and like, what happens if it's like IBC handles 90 of the work for us? We just have to like, feel the button to do it. And like one of my best friends, Zubin, like, he's like, I've been trying to convince him on like Cosmos for like many years and I just never got. He's never gotten it. And then he like tried using like the IBC transfer from like, like atoms to Osmosis. And he was like, oh, I get it now. Yeah. He's like, holy. That would be nerve wracking if there was a potential for a reorg right there. Now I see why.
**A** (15:08):
Yeah.
**B** (15:08):
Safety over liveness.
**A** (15:11):
Yeah. And you know, I, I also like, you go in some of these repos for some of these other bridges, whether they're centralized or, you know, another like, client bridge in the style of ibc and they're like, okay, we've got all these different denominations and like, we might have multiple instances of this chain. And like, it's like, okay, we've been thinking about these problems for years at this point. Like, we have working systems that exhibit them. Like, it's just interesting seeing other ecosystems kind of run into some of the same stuff that we have. But yeah, so, you know, you guys launched Osmosis, a lot of exciting features. We're going to see ust liquidity coming to Osmosis very soon, which is, I think, a huge traction point and an inflection point in IBC adoption. Towards the end of this year, a couple of major chains between Thorchain and Terra coming online. But what do you guys have on the roadmap coming up? We talked a little bit about threshold encryption, but where is that and where does that fit into the broader roadmap?
**B** (16:09):
Yeah, so I guess basically what we're doing right now is we have three main pillars or feature sets that we're working on in parallel. So one is that privacy stuff. So that includes threshold encryption. Eventually, after we finish threshold encryption, we're going to work on more on chain privacy stuff as well. So you can't link people's trades together. But right now a lot of that work right now is focused on getting ABCI up and going. So ABCI was this protocol that our team helped architect and push within Tendermint, which is 10. Tendermint is like this great consensus protocol right now, but it's not very extensible. You can't, like, you know, right now what we have is we have the like Cosmos SDK where you can write like application layer stuff in Your state machine and then you have Tendermint which takes that state machine and makes it a blockchain. But sometimes you know what you, we. And that worked for like the first generation of Cosmos chains, I guess. But now as we go forward, the state machine and consensus protocol actually need to start being more intertwined. So because for example, threshold encryption is something where it's like, oh, it's a state machine level thing because it needs to know how to do a lot of this encryption and stuff. But then it has to talk to the mempool because like there's all sorts of things that sort of do this. Like you know, you want to start doing like validator provided price Oracle, you know, at the last.
**A** (17:40):
I mean. Yeah, I mean the gravity bridge itself, being able to register Ethereum keys and have that multi sig signing thing happen in the consensus protocol would be critical. There's just, I think that the number of applications are kind of limitless.
**B** (17:55):
Yeah, once, once you, once you have access to the. Yeah. You know, part of the pitch of Tendermint has always been you can make your validators do more. Right. Like more than just consensus. You can ask them to do other things. This ABCI is the way that, it's the mechanism of how you ask your validators to do more things.
**A** (18:16):
The way that I've heard this described. You're describing it pretty well, but I've heard it described as. Right now in Tendermint there's only hooks into three parts of the consensus process. You've got Begin Block, Deliver TX and End block. Those are the only callbacks and hooks you have. You want hooks at the proposed step, you want hooks at the pre vote step, you want hooks at the vote step, you want hooks at the, you know, the finalization step, you need hooks into all those various pieces of the consensus machinery in order to really take full advantage of the consensus protocol in what ABCI does is it's ABCI the three existing callbacks plus plus a few more that we didn't have.
**B** (18:55):
Yep, exactly. That's. Yeah, that's more technical explanation, but yeah, that's exactly what it does. So that's all that all goes into privacy stuff then. The second thing that we're working on is staking related stuff. So that's specifically one feature that we have called super fluid staking. And so super fluid staking is this different model of staking derivatives. So I'm sure everyone's probably, hopefully familiar with staking derivatives at this point. It's been an idea that's been Floating.
**A** (19:25):
Assume this show is familiar with staking derivatives. Yeah, fair enough.
**B** (19:30):
I've always been a little bit concerned about staking derivatives in the sense that it's like, you know, I mean I help design a lot of like staking derivative stuff, but it's in the back of my head, it's always like, ah, this. We're just undermining proof of stake, aren't we? We're just like undoing proof of stake, undoing the bond.
**A** (19:46):
It's always kind of felt that way. Yeah, yeah.
**B** (19:50):
So then like about, you know, we had this idea of like, hey, what if there's a way of like getting a lot of the benefits of taking derivatives without the security risk. And so what we're doing there is. So what are staking routers? Staking routers are this idea that you take staking tokens, you stake them, you get back a staking derivative token and then you go do stuff with that staking derivative token. So our thought was, hey, what if we do this in the reverse direction? What if we take staking tokens, use them in defi, get back the defi asset and then go stake the defi assets. So as an example, what we're planning with osmosis is let's say you have OSMO and you want to LP using. Awesome. So let's say you have OSMO akt. Now you put those, you put that into LP into a liquidity pool, you get back an LP share and for this underlying, this LP share is some actual assets. Yeah. And so what if, and now what if we can go stake the, the LP share itself? And because our, because it's an application specific blockchain, we can tell the staking protocol like hey, you know, treat these LP shares as their underlying OSMO value. And so that way now you can have OSMO both LPing and staking at the same time. But they're still staked, right? The LP shares are staked, they're bonded, they still have to go through unbonding. And so you still get all the, you don't undermine the proof of stake security in the same way, but you still get a lot of that benefit.
**A** (21:25):
That's actually really interesting. I had not heard this described yet. A few, just first thoughts on this is one of the interesting staking derivatives that I've heard of is sort of securitizing the staking cash flows, which is very different from this approach. And then, so if we put the OSMO into the liquidity pool and then stake the LP tokens, did those Count as staked both for the liquidity pool staking and the rewards as well as for the staking rewards.
**B** (22:01):
Cool.
**A** (22:04):
Nice.
**B** (22:04):
Earning both liquidity rewards and staking rewards. And we can imagine how this could work for other defi assets as well. So imagine we had some sort of lending protocol like and then let's say you, you deposit OSMO and you get back you osmo. Okay, that's confusing a little bit. UMI OSMO because and, and so then you can take that UMI OSMO and you can stake that as well.
**A** (22:31):
Right, like that makes sense. As long as there's OSMO in the thing. Like there's going to be a way.
**B** (22:39):
For the protocol to like calculate the underlying OSMO value. So yeah, that. And then we have like ideas of how. And then we have like what we have super fluid V2 which is called interfluid staking, which is how do you so, so the idea there is. So I go back to the LP pool example. We said we have this OSMO AKT LP share and then we stake on osmosis. So we're getting all the OSMO value in that whatever that stake value. We're getting the OSMO value counting as security. What about all the AKT over here? What if there's a way of like let this is like super fluid as a service where it's like what if there's a way of us letting the Akash network chain know like hey by the way, you guys have a bunch of AKT that's sitting on osmosis that's staked over here. These people would like to, you know, you want to let them like choose a validator there and if they, I.
**A** (23:36):
Mean it's, it's staked, it's not going to be able to be used in a long range attack. Like counts towards security of the network. Might as well incentivize these people to do this activity as well. Because not only does it buoy the poke token price, it also keeps tokens off the market. It ensures that there's fewer attack vectors. Like makes a shitload of sense.
**B** (23:52):
So it's like any chain can then use osmosis to do super fluid staking. And so it's a type of interchange staking. It's different than shared security because shared security would be saying like oh OSMO should be used to secure. It's not what we're doing. We're saying like hey, other chains you have your own token that's sitting on osmosis. Just let the staked your token on osmosis secure your chain as well.
**A** (24:18):
And you know, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think that the whole proof of stake security model, the reason why we stake is to prevent these long range attacks and to ensure that these tokens are at least locked up for some period of time so that we can some sort of assurances in the stake machine, in the state machine. But you know, you can get these same assurances by staking them in all these other protocols. So like this makes a lot of sense. Very interesting. So you were talking about the three pillars of the roadmap. We've got privacy, we've got super fluid staking and what's the last one?
**B** (24:48):
Third one is just this more general broad defi innovation which is like a very broad term but it just means like you know, improving AMMs. And you know, we're working on a lot of things on like concentrated liquidity but like not the unisoft B3 approach. We want a more sort of passive approach where like the algorithm should be like I kind of like what Curve V2 is doing. It's like some slight modifications where it's a more passive model of concentrated liquidity. Figuring out how to do like different types of AMM specialized for different types of financial assets. Like you know, if you have derivatives and stuff, how do you design an AMM that's like, you know, like AMMs as designed today don't work for options. Right. Because like if those.
**A** (25:35):
Yeah.
**B** (25:36):
Out of the money you have infinite impermanence loss. So how do you create an AMM for options? How do you create an AMM for perks? How do you create an AMM for like all these different things? And so that's just sort of a, that's, that one's a little bit more. And then also like, you know, batching designs and things like this. So these are all just like this like more research, laundry list of things of like I'm just bucketing under DEEPI innovation.
**A** (25:59):
And you know, one area, speaking of innovation that I'm not hearing on this roadmap that I know you're going to continue to innovate on is IBC user experience. And this is sort of a passion you and I really share. Like are you guys going to kind of continue to try to push the boundaries on IBC user experience and you know, do your best to kind of make seamless experiences there? We've talked about a few things.
**B** (26:20):
Yeah. So those three are I would call like our chain roadmap kind of stuff.
**A** (26:24):
Yeah.
**B** (26:25):
Then the IBC user experience is just sort of this more broader thing that we're focused on. Part of our goal here is like, or you know, I had a tweet like 2 or 3 days ago where I was like, you know, everyone else is starting to think about interchange communication right now. Like you have that chain link thing, you have wormhole. It's like, no, no, we've been building interchange communication for two years.
**A** (26:47):
We've already, we done did it.
**B** (26:49):
Yeah, we done thinking about interchange composability. Right. Like, and, and like how do you take applications on different chains and make the UX seamless? Like the goal right now is to prove to the. I think every. A lot of people are still skeptical that like interchange UX will be as good as single chain ux. And so that's like our goal right now is to show everyone that like no, no, no, look, the UX of using the interchange will be as good as like the ux.
**A** (27:19):
I think it's.
**B** (27:19):
Or potentially better.
**A** (27:21):
Like I think, I think it's, I think it's not only potentially going to be better, I think it's necessarily going to be better when you talk about proof of work chains and reorgs and stuff. Like we're going to kiss all that goodbye and we're going to go into this world where you know, you'll be able to either see your asset travel across chains if you want to, or, or you'll just be able to say, great, I'm using this machinery. I don't necessarily know how any of it works in the same way that we're using a handful of servers to communicate between us right in this moment. And you know, proxy chains is I think a really interesting thing that's going to get built out fee models for proxy chains. And yeah, you know, I just, I think there's a like chain naming service is another one.
**B** (28:06):
Chain naming service. I think interchain accounts is a big piece, I think. So we're working on one thing called Beck32 forwarding which is like all the cosmos chains use this Beck32 address format. And it's funny because what we're actually, what I'm trying to do is hack this Beck32 system where Beck32 was really meant to be this client side thing where it's like human readable hrk. Yeah. Just for the clients to be able to more easily display addresses. But I'm trying to push it into a world where it's like, hey, everyone's already using this thing. What if we make the chainsaw aware of these Beck32 address formats and use that as a way of improving the UX where. Because if you go on the Cosmos Hub, your address looks like cosmo1 blah blah blah blah blah. On osmosis it's like osmo1 blah blah blah blah blah block. On some other it'll be Psalm 1 blah blah blah blah blah. And so on the Cosmos Hub I should be able to make an address saying like Send token to OSMO1 blah blah blah. And it should automatically do the IBC stuff in the back end. Like we don't have to, like, you know, users don't have to know how to create IBC transactions or even like integrators don't have to learn how to create IBC transactions. Like, you know, it'll be nice on if, on Coinbase, when I want to withdraw atoms, if I'm able to put an Osmosis address in there, coinbase just automatically just sends it to the Cosmos chain and the Cosmos Hub chain knows like, oh, okay, this is intended to go to the Osmosis chain, so let's go ahead and send it there.
**A** (29:41):
Yeah, I think there's a number of features like this. Like you guys have asset lists over on Osmosis. Chain naming service is sort of this idea of like DNS for the blockchain and I would say another idea that fits in strongly here as well as the Web of Trust idea how to connect addresses from different chains with one coherent identity. The Cosmos ecosystem is ahead of pretty much everyone else and getting to these problems first and then starting to solve them. It will be interesting to see if we can maintain our lead there.
**B** (30:20):
Cool.
**A** (30:20):
So I think at this point this is when we normally do some audience questions. So let's see if we've got any here. There's a few folks here. So there's a question about Osmosis stake rewards. Let's not do that one. So Pavan asks, firstly, Osmosis has smooth and sexy ui. Could you explain more about the future roadmap? Specifically new tools in ibc? I think we just went over that, pavan, but if you, if you have any other questions on that, please ask, will Juno be on Osmosis? What do you think? Sony?
**B** (30:56):
I mean, probably. I mean if it has IBC anything listing is permissionless and so I can't imagine people won't bring it over onto Osmosis.
**A** (31:05):
Having talked to the Juno folks, it seems like they're planning to run relayers and are very excited about being on Osmosis I know that the Juno team really loves the Osmosis project, so that will definitely be the case. I'm also really excited for Juno as well. I think a permissionless, smart contracting chain in the Cosmos ecosystem is going to be a huge change. That and Ethermint launching here very soon are going to shake things up in a big way. And I'm very excited about it. I'm very excited about it. Brian asks Liquid Staking uses bonded lp. Bonded LP is gmm.
**B** (31:43):
Yeah, so, yeah, GMM is. I don't know, it stands for Generalized amm. So that's the name of our module.
**A** (31:51):
It's a great. I think that's a great module name. By the way, I like the gan.
**B** (31:55):
Cool. Yeah, so we have like GAM tokens, which is like the LP shares for each pool. And yeah, you'll be able to, basically. So what we're actually going to be doing is the staking module and our LP bonding module, it's called Lockup. But we're basically going to be combining these modules where like, you know, right now the staking module is basically taking custody of the tokens, when what we're doing is we're going to modify it where it can like take a, you know, we bond tokens in the lockup module and then we can use it for those bonded tokens for both LP keywords and for like staking forwards at.
**A** (32:31):
The same time, you know, and we did chat about this a bit earlier, but I do feel like it's necessary to underlie this point. Like, why this works is because of, like, first principles of staking, like, why are we staking these assets? And it's to prevent certain types of attacks and to prevent people from quickly moving assets from place to place and being able to sort of perform like impersonation attacks, basically. Say, like, I actually own a much larger percentage of this network than I really do and to make undue changes there. And, you know, as long as they're staked somehow or frozen, you could consider those assets as staked. And what Liquid Staking is going to do is just realize that at a protocol level and treat those assets similarly. I think it's a really cool idea. Promid asks, can we imagine NFT being traded on osmosis? How do you see osmosis using NFTs? Hot topic these days?
**B** (33:28):
Yeah, I think NFTs are really cool. I'm waiting for what's gonna be like the NFT platform of Cosmos. You know, I, I played around with. It's the one on, on Iris right now. Yeah, that's what it's called. So I. I tried out that. I know the pylons team is working on stuff. Different pylons in your pylons. I guess you've renamed it.
**A** (33:56):
But I'm not Pylons anymore. I'm Strange Love now.
**B** (33:59):
Yeah, Great name. I love that name. It's really cool. Oh, thanks. Yeah. So there's a couple of NFT stuff, you know, I'd love to figure out. You know, I think what we need to do is everyone needs to like, coalesce on creating like a cross nft, like an IBC NFT standard.
**A** (34:14):
Don't we have that? I thought we have that.
**B** (34:17):
I don't think it's finalized yet. I think, like, I think we need to look at everyone like, all right, this is the final version. Everyone, like, please comply to this.
**A** (34:25):
Hey, Billy, get. Get on it. We need our NFT standards like yesterday.
**B** (34:30):
But. But yeah, so once we have NFTs, like, you know, I'd love to use NFTs on osmosis 1 as sort of like a reward mechanism where it's like, you know, like, I don't know if you've, you know, with the osmosis airdrop kind of thing, you know, as, you know, we'd like to gamify things a little bit. I'd love to, like, start using NFTs as badges where, like, for completing certain tasks. But then also I'd like to. Yeah. How do you. How do you financialize nft? So, you know, there's like a lot of stuff happening on Ethereum right now with the fractionalization of NFTs, which I think is really cool because you have these like, NFTs that are worth like millions of dollars. So if you tokenize, like fractionalize them, you can put them onto an AMM and you can buy portions of an nft. And it's like a little bit weird, but I think that's really exciting. And then also there's like, how do you design defi primitives that are like. Obviously you can't put a full NFT on an amm, because that's like, what does that mean? You know? Yeah, so. So what. What can we do instead? Like, what are other. Let's say you don't want to.
**A** (35:30):
Fractional auctions.
**B** (35:31):
Auctions, you know, how can you borrow and lend against your NFTs, things like that. So that. I think that's what we're going to. I think that's definitely a big thing that's going to need to start happening soon. Cool.
**A** (35:47):
Here's an interesting question PK asks. Does super fluid staking mean shared security isn't needed?
**B** (35:56):
No, not really because. So superfluid staking is a way of saying that there's a lot of OSMO that's being used in the credibles that could be contributing to the chain security as well. That's a way of dipping into that. But at the end I would say.
**A** (36:13):
The one thing that I would say about that. Sorry, I just need to stop you there because you said it could be contributing to chain security. I would say one thing that was hard for me to understand especially when Osmos launches is it is contributing to chain security because it's already staked up. It actually is contributing to chain security because it is locked up. What the protocol doesn't acknowledge is that it is contributing to chain security security. And I think that's where a lot of confusion. I know I had confusion there for a while. Yeah, yeah.
**B** (36:41):
It's not rewarding the fact that it's contributing to security, but it is contributing to security by removing off the market. But yeah, but at the end of the day, even if we had all of that like liquidity can like legibly contribute to security. The market cap of OSMO is still like less than a tenth of that of atoms.
**A** (36:59):
Right.
**B** (36:59):
And so it's like it would still be great to be able to tap into the Cosmos hubs security mechanism as well because like you know, given the current security of like osmosis, it's you know, as we get more and more assets it's harder to, you know, we might start pushing up against that security budget right now. And so we want to get like. But if we, if we have share security with causes hub, we can just like have way more assets on Osmosis.
**A** (37:27):
You know, I also think that in this decentralized world that we're in, where we're all kind of in our own organization, organizations being able to form these sorts of long lasting economic bonds between these distinct communities has huge benefits. You know, like one of the cool things that I've always really liked about Cosmos is we're a really big tent, you know, kind of anyone can come join but with that is sort of a looser bonding between some of the parts than you get in other ecosystems that are more centralized. This will allow those sort of stronger, more long term bonds between large segments of the community to be formalized and continue in ways that were not possible before. And when we talk about the social scalability of these various blockchain primitives like, I think shared security is one of those that you really turn me on too early is something that is going to be critical, you know, not only for economic reasons, but also for other ones too.
**B** (38:23):
Yeah. And that's one thing people have to remember about shared security, where shared security isn't like an either or. It's not like, oh, we get rid of OSMO staking once we use it. It's like it's a combination of the two. You're staking OSMO or you could stake atoms and both are contributing to the security of the system. It's cumulative.
**A** (38:41):
Yep. Here's a fun one. Pramit asks, is it permissionless to list tokens on osmosis? When can my testnet tokens be listed? And the answer is today. You can go do that today.
**B** (38:53):
Yep. I mean IBC is permissionless. Creating pools as permissionless. I'd say the only thing that's a little bit less permissionless right now, which is we're working on, is currently asset lists exist on GitHub and so I. So, so you. You'd be able to make a. A pool with your own tokens. It'll just look really ugly because your token will look like IBC/blah blah blah, some 32 byte string, 64 character hash. Yeah. And so right now the asset list is the way that front ends know to like oh, that weird looking string is this nice looking name, you know, if you want to call it test, promote chain. Right. That's like that. You can do that on the asset list. Currently we have to go birds pr. But eventually, you know, this is part of our IBC UX stuff where it's like, I think asset like we talked about, you know, just ship and iterate over time. Like asset list was like, all right, we need to ship this, let's put it on GitHub and then as we will figure out how to move it on chain in the future. And so that's sort of where once we have that on chain then it'll be even more permissionless.
**A** (39:59):
Yeah.
**B** (40:01):
Cool.
**A** (40:02):
Well we did go a little over. Thank you for indulging me there, Sonny. I really appreciate it. Do you have any last things to plug or chat about? Where can folks find you on the Internet?
**B** (40:11):
Yeah, yeah. I mean you can find me on that Twitter handle, Sunny A97. The Osmosis Twitter account is Osmosis Zone and we're available on Telegram and Discord. I hang out mostly on Telegram but that's where the more fun conversations happen to be. And then if you want to have.
**A** (40:31):
Some more serious telegram, Telegram is like, is the crypto social media. I think I've found out that like that is. That's where we all meet. That's where everyone is. Like, that is the case. Also, another random note. I've always pronounced your Twitter handle is Sunya. I don't know why.
**B** (40:52):
You know what I really want to do, actually, I've been talking to Josh about this where I want to go ahead and actually create a telegram chat per like trading pair on osmosis and then embed the telegram chat on the osmosis website as like a troll box.
**A** (41:09):
Remember, talk to sesla. He's got token gated communities. So depending on what's in your wallet or what assets you have staked, you can enter certain telegram rooms. Like, I've got one for Strange Love that we're going to be launching here in the next month. But yeah, definitely talk to Sisler. He's got all that stuff set up already. That's an excellent idea. I will be partaking in those. We've got a troll box. Come join the Price Spec Channel. Anyway, well, Sunny, thank you very much for joining us today. Really appreciate it. And let's, let's do this again sometime soon. I really want to get Dave on here too, because I want to talk threshold encryption to death.
**B** (41:46):
Josh, by the way, he's like, I haven't. I.
**A** (41:50):
Well, I, I hit Josh up and like it was right after launch. Like I should have just waited. And he was like, jack, I'm sorry, I can't. I'm just too snowed in. And like I'm gonna have Josh on here too, but Josh is a great interview. Anyway, thank you very much for your time, everyone. All around the world, this is again, we've got Sunny on the east coast, we got Sisler in India and me on the west coast and I see some folks in the chat in Europe. So thank you everyone for joining. Thanks again to the sponsors, Sommelier Finance and Omniflex Media or Network. Sorry, please go check out both of those things and everyone have a great Friday and see you all next week.